9 ms·

GrapheneOS recommended for domestic abuse victims

180 points by aussieguy1234 3mo ago

SapporoChris 3mo ago
I've used GrapheneOS, but not PrivacyPros setup. The site is interesting. It is almost like a to do list of things for my phone. Most of the things they've done feels like a topic to look into and consider implementing.
d--b 3mo ago
This is a website made by people who sell phones that are 100% tracker-free, and that run on GrpheneOS. I wouldn’t recommend domestic violence victims to install graphene os on their phone by themselves
- bigiain 3mo ago
  The website also says: "Australian research shows that 99% of domestic violence cases now involve some form of technology-facilitated abuse." Where the "Australian research" is linked to a page where the first Key Finding states: "Over one quarter (27%) of domestic violence cases involve technology-facilitated abuse of children." Doesn't fill me with confidence in anything they say (even if I do believe the advice is right).
  - defrost 3mo ago
    The relevant quote* from the linked Australian research is: Technology-facilitated abuse is becoming more and more of a key feature of domestic and family violence. A 2015 survey of 546 domestic and family violence frontline workers found that 98% of respondents had clients who had experienced technology-facilitated abuse. The research then focuses specifically on children, finding that of all the domestic violence cases, 27% involve technology-facilitated abuse of children. Can you expand on what it is that "Doesn't fill [you] with confidence" ? * Page 9: https://www.esafety.gov.au/sites/default/files/2020-12/Children%20and%20technology-facilitated%20abuse%20-%20Summary%20report.pdf https://www.esafety.gov.au/sites/default/files/2020-12/Child...
    - defrost 3mo ago
      As no one has commented on the problem; 98% of "frontline workers" having direct experience of "Technology-facilitated abuse" (ie. have encountered at least one case of it out of all their cases) is very different to 98% of "all domestic violence cases" involving "Technology-facilitated abuse".
- Cider9986 3mo ago
  I'm curious what you are considering with recommending buying a privacy phone vs buying a regular phone and flashing in a DV situation?
- harvey9 3mo ago
  I flashed a pixel using their webpage. They have made it remarkably simple to do.
  - mmooss 3mo ago
    How do you know what they installed? Also, I understand that GrapheneOS installs are very simple now.
    - HybridStatAnim8 3mo ago
      GrapheneOS provides verification steps at the end of both installation methods to ensure your install is genuine.
    - Cider9986 3mo ago
      Auditor [1] might work. But GrapheneOS recommends flashing yourself. [1] attestation.app
    - vhcr 3mo ago
      https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~rdriley/487/papers/Thompson_1984_ReflectionsonTrustingTrust.pdf https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~rdriley/487/papers/Thompson_1984_Ref...
    - harvey9 3mo ago
      I should have been explicit: I used the GrapheneOS webpage. I am placing my trust in them but I am not under any particular threat and just liked that they have stated they won't support age verification.
- grapheneos 3mo ago
  It's generally better for people to install GrapheneOS themselves since it's very easy and saves a lot of money. It takes 10 minutes to install GrapheneOS with the web installer. It also avoids needing to trust a company to do it, although it's possible to verify an install done by someone else is genuine with the verified boot key fingerprint and/or Auditor. An existing install by someone else should be factory reset it to avoid any sketchy configuration. Getting a new phone is very useful to someone that's a victim of a controlling partner but it doesn't particularly need to be a GrapheneOS device. GrapheneOS has features useful for this including Auditor and standard Android profiles but we're not specifically recommending it for this ourselves. People who are victims of this probably just need a new phone of any kind and to prioritize other things.
Cider9986 3mo ago
It's absolutely insane that phones have online accounts deeply integrated into the OS. You need to give Apple your phone number to download any apps on iOS. For example: Say anyone that downloaded IceBlock commited crime, Apple could give the govt everyone who downloaded its phone number, the govt could get the realtime location of everyone based on their phone number from the carrier. And that's not even mentioning the other problem that nobody can download IceBlock anymore[1]. It's so refreshing for my phone not to ask for any identifying information when I set it up. GrapheneOS is a better software experience than iOS anyway[2]. Phones have great potential to be the most private and secure computers, cell services not withdrawing. And iPhones are one of the most private and secure devices. But, Apple uses that to restrict its users freedom and it makes Apple's users can easily be controlled by any government. GrapheneOS delivers that dream. [1] https://www.iceblock.app/ https://www.iceblock.app/ [2] once you install good apps. This is coming from a lifelong iOS user. Not prejudiced against Apple, I use a Mac (without an account) and their Advanced Data Protection is great (when I had an account).
- monksy 3mo ago
  I agree with that.. additionaly, I'm finding it to be insane that organizations are trying to force you to have a "audited" phone to interact with them. (I.e. events, businesses, etc)
  - andai 3mo ago
    What is that? I don't seem to be finding anything relevant on Google.
    - andwur 3mo ago
      Likely referring to Android's Play Integrity/hardware attestation API (good explainer from GrapheneOS [1]) that is practically used to restrict what devices/brands/Android builds an app will allow itself to be run on. [1] https://grapheneos.org/articles/attestation-compatibility-guide https://grapheneos.org/articles/attestation-compatibility-gu...
    - 3mo ago
arkhiver 3mo ago
It's almost like they're trying to sell you one of their phones... not cool
- Cider9986 3mo ago
  I disagree, it's cool to promote good projects like GrapheneOS that help people. Have you seen how many articles recommend not secure and not private alternative phones, that's not cool. Edit: damn some of their phones with it preloaded are like 4x the price your can get for pixels in the state's. Can't speak to Australian prices for regular pixels tho.
  - bigiain 3mo ago
    The cheapest option, Pixel 10, costs $1349 from Google, they want $1990 (in Australian Dollars, that's about $940 and $1390 in USD) So not quite a 50% markup on the bard phone, not quite as bad as 4x. And while I'd feel like a jerk if I asked for money helping someone at risk of DV setting this up, if I was doing it as a business with the mandatory warranty and support this'd need to include in Australia, I think that's expensive but probably fair?
    - Cider9986 3mo ago
      Yeah fair enough. I see 400-500 USD new 10s on eBay so that's where I was coming from. I wonder how much shipping and importing from the US would be. Interesting they don't sell the 10a, seems like a great budget phone from what I've seen. Edit: I didn't consider taxes and initially I assumed exchange rates were more similar then they are. Law in my profile heh (not on purpose)
monksy 3mo ago
I use GrapheneOS, I would endorse it for anyone that is technically capable.
- senectus1 3mo ago
  [flagged]
lazycatjumping 3mo ago
The Fingerprint with Pin 2FA is a huge game changer.
andai 3mo ago
Can someone explain this? I've used custom ROMs back in the day (Cyanogen!) but I'm not familiar with GrapheneOS. I remember Cyanogen ships without Google Play etc., right? (Because if you install Google Services and a bunch of crap from their store (theirs and otherwise) that spies on you, it defeats the purpose of a privacy preserving OS. So I'm assuming Graphene is at least as strict as that? (Well Cyanogen at least give you the option of installing all that crap but that would seem to defeat the purpose in this case.) But more broadly I'm not sure I understand the relevance in this particular context. The article mentions that an abuser could put spyware on your phone? Is that a realistic scenario? (Ok I suppose half the stuff on the Play store is spyware so maybe it's more realistic than I'm thinking...)
- Cider9986 3mo ago
  Zero Google services are shippsx by default, but you can install Play Store and Services in a sandbox and it has minimal privacy problems, depending on the permissions you give it. Their docs are really good, not only for their phone but for learning about privacy and security: https://grapheneos.org https://grapheneos.org You could still install an app that spies on you on grapheneos because it has 99.99% android app compatibility, so if you gave an app designed for spying the relevant permissions, it would still be able to spy. No way it could hide location indicator or anything like that, but I doubt it could do that on other OSes (don't quote me on other OSes).
- Nursie 3mo ago
  I mean, some obvious things are there in the article, IMHO - - App isolation and hidden profiles (up to 32 separate profiles) - Verified Boot (tamper detection on every startup) So you can do stuff on there that's not going to tip off someone who's controlling enough to demand to see your phone, and so you'll at least be tipped off if someone compromises it.
  - palata 3mo ago
    > hidden profiles (up to 32 separate profiles) I am a happy user of GrapheneOS, I don't know about "hidden" profiles. I am not sure what they are talking about. > App isolation That's an Android thing, not specific to GrapheneOS. > Verified Boot (tamper detection on every startup) That's an Android thing, not specific to GrapheneOS.
dmsehuang 3mo ago
[flagged]
- appplication 3mo ago
  Did you get lost from the music video thread?
trial_version 3mo ago
Haven't anybody noticed an iPhone in the illustration, or is it just my mind working that way?
- Barbing 3mo ago
  Stock photo - yeah that triple camera is equivalent to an Apple logo. Perhaps royalty-free image chosen without enough care or b/c it’s just a stock photo. (Or they already licensed that one.)
mmooss 3mo ago
Is GrapheneOS usable by everyone, including the most non-technical phone users, in a secure way? They also recommend at least 12 GB RAM. What about domestic abuse survivors requires that?
- Cider9986 3mo ago
  Yes it's usable by everyone. It's secure by default but anyone can make something insecure. For example granting malicious apps accessiblity permissions would not be great for security. It has 99.99% android app compatibility. Over 90% of banking and government apps work. These apps take extra measures to ban grapheneos, apps must put in work to make their app incompatible, not the other way around. I wouldn't say anyone can use it, if you can't sign in to a Google account by yourself then you would have trouble setting it up. But that would be similar on iOS. For the average person, definitely. There's no code or anything like that. Works just like stock Pixels. If I was giving it to my grandma then I would install her apps and she would be fine clicking icons. But similar on iOS. Yeah that RAM mention is very strange, not the best article.
  - mmooss 3mo ago
    See my response to the sister comment, if you don't mind. > anyone can make something insecure Many consumer products, including iPhones to a significant degree, are designed to prevent this, much to the frustration of hackers. 'What do you mean I can't sideload random apps?' Or other products: It takes a lot of effort to make your car insecure, or to make your stove leak gas. They are carefully designed for safety.
- rcMgD2BwE72F 3mo ago
  Yes, I find it much easier to set up and use than any other Android phone. There’s less bloatware, and battery life is noticeably better. Two tips for beginners: Google Play Store and Google Play Services can be installed from the App Store. They aren’t included by default because GrapheneOS works fine without them. If a trusted app has trouble running, try enabling Exploit protection compatibility mode on the app’s Info screen (long-press the app icon → Info → Exploit protection). Check whether your bank is supported: https://privsec.dev/posts/android/banking-applications-compatibility-with-grapheneos/ https://privsec.dev/posts/android/banking-applications-compa.... If it isn’t, it likely depends on the Play Integrity API, which means it requires customers to stay under constant surveillance by the world’s largest advertising company, with no real security justification (see https://grapheneos.org/articles/attestation-compatibility-guide https://grapheneos.org/articles/attestation-compatibility-gu...). In that case, you should switch to a more trustworthy bank.
wolvesechoes 3mo ago
[flagged]
- ButlerianJihad 3mo ago
  This. I looked at this headline and I thought to myself, that I couldn't think of a stupider solution or a dumber sales pitch than "hey DV victims! use this complex gadget!" No. I mean, come on. This is the sort of thing where people read a poster in the ladies' room and then they carefully plan a discreet exit from their life of abuse. These are very low-tech escapes. They involve packing your necessities and slipping out while your abuser's not watching. And yes, the social safety nets, and the institutional protections, are the operational needs here. No gadgets, please.
  - watwut 3mo ago
    Domestic abuse victim still need to call their workplace, childcare, manage bank account, pay bills. They have grandparents they contact, they have acquitances and friends. Otherwise said, live. The discret exist where you leave everything behind is the most disasterous situation to be in.
- lewiscollard 3mo ago
  > God, I hate techno-solutionism. I don't hate it nearly as much as this weird genre of accelerationism where any attempt to improve one's immediate circumstances is just a distraction from the real work that needs to be done.
  - wolvesechoes 3mo ago
    And where the acceleration comes in in such description? Improving one's immediate circumstances in such context is talking to someone and asking for help, not spending days installing latest set of tools endorsed by privacy advocates and bricking one's phone due to accident while flashing privacy-friendly ROM.
    - 3mo ago
aucisson_masque 3mo ago
Why care about what Google know about you, in case of domestic abuse ? It's not like Google is going to sell your tracking data to abuser. There are many reasons to get rid of Google altogether, I just don't understand this one.
- chmod775 3mo ago
  Here's an article explaining why one should care: https://privacypros.com.au/privacy-hub/articles/dv-safe-phone-australia/ https://privacypros.com.au/privacy-hub/articles/dv-safe-phon... The tl;dr is that you can either share this data by accident through some sort of "locate my family" app, or because your abuser gets access to your Google/Apple account (for instance because you're signed in on another device they have access to). The threat model here can be: domestic abuse victim flees a situation at home in a hurry, stays signed in on a computer. Abuser uses the sign-in on that computer to track their phone, figures out they're staying at their aunt's place. Yes, you can avoid this on a regular Google phone as well, but that requires correctly configuring it (and a lot, such as location and search history, can be re-enabled remotely!). If you're running Graphene you are protected by default, rather than compromised by default.
  - aucisson_masque 3mo ago
    Even on grapheneos you got to install the play store and play services to get most app to work, which mean connecting to a Google account. Technically you can use fdroid, Aurora store, or only use stock applications but if we are serious, not all domestic abuse victims are also geeks that know how to do all these things. They will need their apps, for instance for social security. Also, many people use their phone to pay nowadays, can't do on grapheneos. Domestic abuse is a serious threat and people are motivated to stay away from their abusers, but if you give them something so barebone that they can't do 90% of their stuff, a significant percentage of them will revert to their old behavior and risk compromising themselves. For instance, buying a second phone and connecting it to the old Google account just to browse tiktok.
    - Cider9986 3mo ago
virajk_31 3mo ago
[flagged]
- deleted 3mo ago
  [deleted]
- Cider9986 3mo ago
  What was troubling for you using it or setting it up?
  - virajk_31 3mo ago
    [flagged]
    - grapheneos 3mo ago
      Many of the GrapheneOS features including Contact Scopes, Storage Scopes, Sensors toggle and things most users can understand and are very interested in having. Most of what GrapheneOS provides is under the hood which is a good thing for usability but there are plenty of features non-technical users can see and understand. Installing sandboxed Google Play is done by simply pressing the install button for it in the GrapheneOS App Store.
Namidairo 3mo ago
On this subject since it's an Australian seller and marketed as "DV safe". Australia has a national test of it's phone alert system in 10 days at 27/07/26, 2PM AEST. (People in North America would know it as Cell Alerts/Presidential Alerts etc.) There have been warnings that hidden phones will almost certainly sound, and their recommendation is to ether power off the phone or put it into airplane mode at least an hour before the test...
- saltamimi 3mo ago
  You should be able to disable these alerts via the Wireless Emergency Alerts.
  - b112 3mo ago
    You cannot on many phones, and often phones will even lie when it says all categories are disabled, as some jurisdictions have laws against turning off some of the highest alert categories.
    - grapheneos 3mo ago
      GrapheneOS supports fully disabling wireless alerts via the Settings app. It's possible to disable it on other Android devices via ADB.
      - b112 3mo ago
        I've dealt with Android phones for which there was zero way to disable the highest alert, adb regardless. Unless you have root, it's often not possible. Yes, GrapheneOS of course allows this. Edit: re followup comment. No, adb cannot be used in all cases to disable the packages involved. At all. Some phones refuse to lets users disable some packages, no matter what. Yes, I know what I'm talking about. As someone with decades of Linux and Android experience, who often works nights, having Quebec police use presidental alerts... CRTC regardless, to warn of a child abducted by a parent 2000km away from me, is an exceptionally strong motivator. The sheer stupid of an alert you cannot control the volume, sound, and length of in any way, is absurd. Try going back to sleep after something screams at you, at your equiv of 2am is madness. By god I hate those alerts. So yes, I know. If you don't have root, and the phone won't let you disable some packages, you're done. And it's another reason I like GrapheneOS.
karlkloss 3mo ago
The site has CAPTCHAs, and I'm too dumb to solve them, because the pictures are so bad that I can't make out anything. How did we get there?
- Cider9986 3mo ago
  Try megaladon.jp/https://example.com https://example.com uses cloudflare instead
- redleader55 3mo ago
  It's funny the page recommends de-Googled phones, but requires a Google service(reCaptcha) to view the page.
- OsrsNeedsf2P 3mo ago
  Just open your favorite browser MCP and ask it to beat the captcha
____mr____ 3mo ago
Very weird post, I dont see how a victim with not enough agency to control what apps are on their phone will somehow be able to install a custom os
- tripleee 3mo ago
  You'd be surprised how easy GrapheneOS is to install. You literally do it through a browser with your phone connected via USB.
  - palata 3mo ago
    I don't think it was the point of the parent. Sure it's easy to install, but the point is that if an abuser can somehow control your phone and install that kind of app, then they probably won't let you remove it. I am a (very happy) GrapheneOS user, I am certain that I can install a tracking app on it. I can even easily side-load an abusive app that would be banned on the Play Store... Like I would totally recommend GrapheneOS because it's great, but I don't think it solves the problem of "a domestic abuser can access your phone by making you give access to your phone".
  - ____mr____ 3mo ago
    I know how easy it is to install graphene. But if your abuser is controlling the apps you install they can (should) see you installing a new OS or changing your phone?
- jeroenhd 3mo ago
  Installing Graphene can be done through the browser: https://grapheneos.org/install/web https://grapheneos.org/install/web It's not as easy as it can be (the text is aimed at people familiar with Android flashing) but in practice you need to toggle one setting, reboot holding the volume button, and then click four buttons in your browser in order, with the exact names for settings spelled out in the guide itself. I don't think wiping an abuser's malware is such a great solution unless you've already managed to get out of the DV situation. Perhaps GrapheneOS is a good idea on a secret second phone?
charcircuit 3mo ago
This is just the company use DV as a manipulation tactic to get you to buy their phones.
izacus 3mo ago
This is a submarine Advertisement for a company that will resell you a Google Pixel phone with likt 50% markup and preinstalled GrapheneOS. Let's not normalize this kind of profiteering out of OSS.
nunobrito 3mo ago
[flagged]
- Cider9986 3mo ago
  Grapheneos is the least shady OS. Why would a mass surveillance agency compromise hardware when they can simply spy at the software level though Google's deep insights into devices? Those Android distributions you refer to are not up to date, don't fully remove Google services, don't ship patches fast, don't improve exploit protections, have worse compatibility, don't make Google's services more private by running them in a sandbox, dont add additional important permissions. Grapheneos ships security updates faster then Google on pixels. If you want the best protection against zero days or mass surveillance, grapheneos is the best option. Grapheneos is fully run on donations and has provided information in various posts. Most crypto donations by volume are in Monero, Eth and Bitcoin have a few large donations. They are registered as a legal entity in Canada.
  - nunobrito 3mo ago
    [flagged]
    - grapheneos 3mo ago
      There's a lot of evidence showing governments need to develop or purchase exploits for iPhones and Pixels. There's no evidence of there being any hardware backdoors. > It is also suspicious the preferential treatment given to that suspicious distro while all others are left in the dark. We don't receive any preferential treatment from Google. Android's business side disallowed us from receiving any form of partner access and took away the security patch preview access given to us by Android's security team. That has been the case for years. We have security preview patch access but it isn't from either Google. Google also hasn't ever allowed us to have early access to major Android releases but that doesn't mean we haven't obtained it. > Using hardware from a vendor that cannot be audited and every possible business interest in spying you. You can claim this about any hardware. Pixels meet our hardware requirements and we're expanding support to multiple upcoming Motorola Mobility (Lenovo) devices meeting our requirements. There will be a growing number of Motorola devices with official support for GrapheneOS. > Same excuse argued by Signal GrapheneOS has never received any government grants and is fully funded by donations. Signal didn't cover up that they were received Open Technology Fund grants and other government money. > It is easy to be transparent about donations rather than opaque: publish the operating costs and level of donations by a certified auditor without need to disclose names. The entirety of the GrapheneOS funding comes from donations. Our finances are audited every year as a requirement for a Canadian non-profit receiving more than $500k/year in revenue. The purpose of the audits is nearly entirely to make sure we're spending all of the money. It makes sure that all the money is accounted for and being spent appropriately. A subset of our expenses are specifically checked to make sure of it. It also involves more than that but it has little to do with where the donations are received from. Donations are largely made anonymously. We can see names for Wise and PayPal donations but they're often not the legal names of individuals or companies. Most donations are received via cryptocurrency. We can publish information on our revenue and expenses but it's not clear what that has to do with the unsubstantiated claims you're making about us or why it would stop you from doing it. > But you won't, strangely enough. You weren't responding to anyone that's part of the GrapheneOS project.
Sn4ppl 3mo ago
[dead]
pbgcp2026 3mo ago
Good luck with "age verification" ...
AussieWog93 3mo ago
This post is literally just SEO copy designed to sell degoogled phones to (justifiably) anxious DV victims? Their phones are more than twice as expensive as equivalent models at JF HiFi too (and 5-10x the price of an older, but still perfectly useful degoogled phone from Marketplace). Why is it on the front page of HN?
- grapheneos 3mo ago
  Getting a new phone is very useful to someone that's a victim of a controlling partner but it doesn't particularly need to be a GrapheneOS device. GrapheneOS has features useful for this including Auditor and standard Android profiles (Private Space, secondary users) with improvements but we're not specifically recommending it for this ourselves. People who are victims of this probably just need a new phone of any kind and to prioritize other things. > and 5-10x the price of an older, but still perfectly useful degoogled phone from Marketplace Devices with drastically worse privacy and security than the Android Open Source Project including lack of bare minimum updates aren't in the same space as GrapheneOS. It's generally better for people to install GrapheneOS themselves since it's very easy and saves a lot of money. It takes 10 minutes to install GrapheneOS with the web installer. It also avoids needing to trust a company to do it, although it's possible to verify an install done by someone else is genuine with the verified boot key fingerprint and/or Auditor. An existing install by someone else should be factory reset it to avoid any sketchy configuration.
  - izacus 3mo ago
    Ok, but this is outright a scam for those victims, you realize that? A company profiteering massively from vulnerable people.
    - grapheneos 3mo ago
      There are a bunch of companies selling devices with GrapheneOS at a significant markup despite it being very easy for non-technical people to install it themselves in 10 to 20 minutes. There's a lot of demand for it and companies set prices based on what they can get away with charging. The linked post is a mess which was probably generated with an LLM. GrapheneOS does have useful properties for this even though it isn't the focus. Someone could write a proper article making a case for it even though this isn't one. GrapheneOS is free and we recommend people install it themselves with the web installer. People can also save a lot of money getting a used device, but we strongly recommend against an older device than a Pixel 8 due to support time. A used Pixel 8a tends to be the cheapest option. An important thing to watch out for with used devices is avoiding ones which were originally sold by carriers locking their devices. Some phone sellers wrongly label locked devices as being fully unlocked. If people buy a device with GrapheneOS instead of doing it themselves as we recommend, we a guide to follow to make sure it's genuine GrapheneOS and get rid of any strange software or configuration it ships with: https://grapheneos.org/faq#preinstalled-devices https://grapheneos.org/faq#preinstalled-devices
raffael_de 3mo ago
also recommended for government abuse victims.
b112 3mo ago
This is just dumb. I'm sorry, it's dumb. Why? Here we're discussing a domestic abuse situation, where people are forcing victims to hand over their phone, and have apps installed to keep track of them. Against their will. And the solution is to... what? Mysteriously have control of your own phone, and install an OS which prevents this? Seriously? I can just imagine it, when the unfamiliar OS is discovered, or the app not working. This is a domestic abuse situation, it's not about hidden sneakiness. It's about in-your-face control. It's about forced compliance, or else. It's about the abuser becoming exceptionally upset about their tracking not working, or about a new, mysterious OS. Installing GrapheneOS would not be tolerated. It would be an act which comes with reprisals. I can just imagine the reaction when the abuser can't get the phone to do as they wish, for the person to disclose what the OS is, or just to hand over their unlocked phone, and discover it's GrapheneOS, and Google it and see what it's for. It's actually horrible advice to advocate the someone in this situation installs GrapheneOS. How could it possibly help? GrapheneOS is great to protect from secret, unknown spying. Not some domestic abuse situation where spying isn't via secretness.
- mnw21cam 3mo ago
  Agreed. It'd be great for after the person has left the DV situation but not really beforehand.
surcap526 3mo ago
[dead]
inigyou 3mo ago
This the same country that exiled the creator of Session because privacy is illegal?
tranq_cassowary 3mo ago
GrapheneOS user and community member here. TLDR: The blog post that this thread links is full of misrepresentations and falsehoods about what GrapheneOS offers and also is heavy mismarketing of the phones and services PrivacyPros offer. I recommend to avoid PrivacyPros. The basic premise, that a secured and private phone, is useful for domestic abuse victims is of course okay. It is true that protecting your privacy from abusive family members can be useful and GrapheneOS' features, which are accurately described on their own website (contrary to the linked blog post), certainly help remove threats in that regard. See : https://grapheneos.org/features https://grapheneos.org/features . This is dependent on the specific situation, of course, (e.g. huge difference between ex-partner stalking you and a current partner you live with abusing you), because if you are forced to give your phone password at the threat of being hurt, a secure phone won't really help you a lot. While the licenses that GrapheneOS uses permit companies to establishes businesses using GrapheneOS software, it's not recommended by the project to buy pre-installed phones, certainly not pre-configured phones, like PrivacyPros offers. The install process of GrapheneOS is simple if you are using the WebInstaller, and there is a lot of free support available in the community chat rooms and fora if you bump into issues. This saves you a lot of money because you can buy a new, used or refurbished Pixel with the stock OS installed at a much lower price. If you install GrapheneOS itself the guide also mentions you have to verify the integrity of your installation. That also holds true for preinstalled phones, you should check the verified boot hash and set up Auditor app. Preconfigured phones should actually be completely factory reset, not only from the OS but preferably also from recovery mode and then set up again, with a check of the boot hash and a set up of Auditor app before you install any apps or start changing settings. You don't know what PrivacyPros has changed to the settings, what they loaded on the device and Auditor should be set up by yourself and straight from the beginning, before you start using the device, because pinning-based security is an important part of its security model and you would want to be pinned to a clean state from the post install. The blog post and also the PrivacyPros website where they promote and sell their phones is riddled with unnecessary misguided advice and also falsehoods about what GrapheneOS offers and what the dangers of the stock Pixel OS and Android in general are. Pixel OS and Android in general are portrayed way too negatively. I'll just give a few examples because it will cost me way too much time too debunk and correct all of it. These ones are verified easily by yourself and I hope it just makes clear you can discard everything PrivacyPros has written and makes clear you should just consult the official GrapheneOS website. So, they pretend as if Android and Pixels themselves don't have a permission model, multiple users and verified boot. This is untrue. GrapheneOS hardens the app sandbox and permissions model more and offers stuff like storage scopes to work around to broad permissions, but the sandbox and permissions model itself exists for Android in general. Verified boot is also a standard Android feature, and also exists on iPhones and even on MacOS and ChromeOS. Multiple users are part of Android, GrapheneOS just increases the available number of users and increases their usability. Also note that users don't improve sandboxing. Sandboxing and access control exist within profiles as well, profiles are mainly meant for increased isolation via separate user data, user settings and VPN slots. They also offer separate encryption keys allowing you to selectively put data at rest etc. The whole idea of a "ghost" profile and user profiles being at the centre to security and privacy is misguided. They also call about kill switches, Pixels don't have hardware kill switches and the software kill switches are just part of Android.
mrkeen 3mo ago
Reasonably happy with GrapheneOS, but the number of bugs (maybe more ecosystem bugs) would make me hesitant to suggest other people rely on it as a communication device. I have notifications turned ON for WhatsApp, Signal and Telegram. I never receive notifications from Telegram. I have to open that app to see if anyone said anything. WhatsApp and Signal notifications seem to vary between late or never? This is despite a constant notification reminder that Signal has Background connection enabled. Also I can only send messages to some whatsapp contacts. My messages appear as pending for a while and eventually turn into 'could not send'.
- HybridStatAnim8 3mo ago
  This is not an issue with GrapheneOS, this is an issue with your configuration, which is trivial to solve. All of those apps support using google services FCM for push notification delivery. I dont think Telegram has a fallback, and Signal and Whatsapp have power-intensive fallbacks. You may also need to reinstall these apps for them to detect google services (apps generally dont check for google services more than once on initial launch).
  - classified 3mo ago
    That's not how I understand the meaning of "trivial".
    - lnfromx 3mo ago
      You just have to reinstall you apps using Google Play Store and install Google Play Services
  - yolo1897 3mo ago
    No, whatsapp fallback to websockets is very power efficient unlike official signal app one, all you need is to set battery optimization to unrestricted for it.
    - lnfromx 3mo ago

180 points by aussieguy1234 3mo ago

I've used GrapheneOS, but not PrivacyPros setup. The site is interesting. It is almost like a to do list of things for my phone. Most of the things they've done feels like a topic to look into and consider implementing.

d--b 3mo ago

This is a website made by people who sell phones that are 100% tracker-free, and that run on GrpheneOS. I wouldn’t recommend domestic violence victims to install graphene os on their phone by themselves

bigiain 3mo ago
The website also says: "Australian research shows that 99% of domestic violence cases now involve some form of technology-facilitated abuse." Where the "Australian research" is linked to a page where the first Key Finding states: "Over one quarter (27%) of domestic violence cases involve technology-facilitated abuse of children." Doesn't fill me with confidence in anything they say (even if I do believe the advice is right).
- defrost 3mo ago
  The relevant quote* from the linked Australian research is: Technology-facilitated abuse is becoming more and more of a key feature of domestic and family violence. A 2015 survey of 546 domestic and family violence frontline workers found that 98% of respondents had clients who had experienced technology-facilitated abuse. The research then focuses specifically on children, finding that of all the domestic violence cases, 27% involve technology-facilitated abuse of children. Can you expand on what it is that "Doesn't fill [you] with confidence" ? * Page 9: https://www.esafety.gov.au/sites/default/files/2020-12/Children%20and%20technology-facilitated%20abuse%20-%20Summary%20report.pdf https://www.esafety.gov.au/sites/default/files/2020-12/Child...
  - defrost 3mo ago
    As no one has commented on the problem; 98% of "frontline workers" having direct experience of "Technology-facilitated abuse" (ie. have encountered at least one case of it out of all their cases) is very different to 98% of "all domestic violence cases" involving "Technology-facilitated abuse".
Cider9986 3mo ago
I'm curious what you are considering with recommending buying a privacy phone vs buying a regular phone and flashing in a DV situation?
harvey9 3mo ago
I flashed a pixel using their webpage. They have made it remarkably simple to do.
- mmooss 3mo ago
  How do you know what they installed? Also, I understand that GrapheneOS installs are very simple now.
  - HybridStatAnim8 3mo ago
    GrapheneOS provides verification steps at the end of both installation methods to ensure your install is genuine.
  - Cider9986 3mo ago
    Auditor [1] might work. But GrapheneOS recommends flashing yourself. [1] attestation.app
  - vhcr 3mo ago
    https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~rdriley/487/papers/Thompson_1984_ReflectionsonTrustingTrust.pdf https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~rdriley/487/papers/Thompson_1984_Ref...
  - harvey9 3mo ago
    I should have been explicit: I used the GrapheneOS webpage. I am placing my trust in them but I am not under any particular threat and just liked that they have stated they won't support age verification.
grapheneos 3mo ago
It's generally better for people to install GrapheneOS themselves since it's very easy and saves a lot of money. It takes 10 minutes to install GrapheneOS with the web installer. It also avoids needing to trust a company to do it, although it's possible to verify an install done by someone else is genuine with the verified boot key fingerprint and/or Auditor. An existing install by someone else should be factory reset it to avoid any sketchy configuration. Getting a new phone is very useful to someone that's a victim of a controlling partner but it doesn't particularly need to be a GrapheneOS device. GrapheneOS has features useful for this including Auditor and standard Android profiles but we're not specifically recommending it for this ourselves. People who are victims of this probably just need a new phone of any kind and to prioritize other things.

Cider9986 3mo ago

It's absolutely insane that phones have online accounts deeply integrated into the OS. You need to give Apple your phone number to download any apps on iOS. For example: Say anyone that downloaded IceBlock commited crime, Apple could give the govt everyone who downloaded its phone number, the govt could get the realtime location of everyone based on their phone number from the carrier. And that's not even mentioning the other problem that nobody can download IceBlock anymore[1]. It's so refreshing for my phone not to ask for any identifying information when I set it up. GrapheneOS is a better software experience than iOS anyway[2]. Phones have great potential to be the most private and secure computers, cell services not withdrawing. And iPhones are one of the most private and secure devices. But, Apple uses that to restrict its users freedom and it makes Apple's users can easily be controlled by any government. GrapheneOS delivers that dream. [1] https://www.iceblock.app/ https://www.iceblock.app/ [2] once you install good apps. This is coming from a lifelong iOS user. Not prejudiced against Apple, I use a Mac (without an account) and their Advanced Data Protection is great (when I had an account).

monksy 3mo ago
I agree with that.. additionaly, I'm finding it to be insane that organizations are trying to force you to have a "audited" phone to interact with them. (I.e. events, businesses, etc)
- andai 3mo ago
  What is that? I don't seem to be finding anything relevant on Google.
  - andwur 3mo ago
    Likely referring to Android's Play Integrity/hardware attestation API (good explainer from GrapheneOS [1]) that is practically used to restrict what devices/brands/Android builds an app will allow itself to be run on. [1] https://grapheneos.org/articles/attestation-compatibility-guide https://grapheneos.org/articles/attestation-compatibility-gu...
  - 3mo ago

arkhiver 3mo ago

It's almost like they're trying to sell you one of their phones... not cool

Cider9986 3mo ago
I disagree, it's cool to promote good projects like GrapheneOS that help people. Have you seen how many articles recommend not secure and not private alternative phones, that's not cool. Edit: damn some of their phones with it preloaded are like 4x the price your can get for pixels in the state's. Can't speak to Australian prices for regular pixels tho.
- bigiain 3mo ago
  The cheapest option, Pixel 10, costs $1349 from Google, they want $1990 (in Australian Dollars, that's about $940 and $1390 in USD) So not quite a 50% markup on the bard phone, not quite as bad as 4x. And while I'd feel like a jerk if I asked for money helping someone at risk of DV setting this up, if I was doing it as a business with the mandatory warranty and support this'd need to include in Australia, I think that's expensive but probably fair?
  - Cider9986 3mo ago
    Yeah fair enough. I see 400-500 USD new 10s on eBay so that's where I was coming from. I wonder how much shipping and importing from the US would be. Interesting they don't sell the 10a, seems like a great budget phone from what I've seen. Edit: I didn't consider taxes and initially I assumed exchange rates were more similar then they are. Law in my profile heh (not on purpose)

monksy 3mo ago

I use GrapheneOS, I would endorse it for anyone that is technically capable.

senectus1 3mo ago
[flagged]

lazycatjumping 3mo ago

The Fingerprint with Pin 2FA is a huge game changer.

andai 3mo ago

Can someone explain this? I've used custom ROMs back in the day (Cyanogen!) but I'm not familiar with GrapheneOS. I remember Cyanogen ships without Google Play etc., right? (Because if you install Google Services and a bunch of crap from their store (theirs and otherwise) that spies on you, it defeats the purpose of a privacy preserving OS. So I'm assuming Graphene is at least as strict as that? (Well Cyanogen at least give you the option of installing all that crap but that would seem to defeat the purpose in this case.) But more broadly I'm not sure I understand the relevance in this particular context. The article mentions that an abuser could put spyware on your phone? Is that a realistic scenario? (Ok I suppose half the stuff on the Play store is spyware so maybe it's more realistic than I'm thinking...)

Cider9986 3mo ago
Zero Google services are shippsx by default, but you can install Play Store and Services in a sandbox and it has minimal privacy problems, depending on the permissions you give it. Their docs are really good, not only for their phone but for learning about privacy and security: https://grapheneos.org https://grapheneos.org You could still install an app that spies on you on grapheneos because it has 99.99% android app compatibility, so if you gave an app designed for spying the relevant permissions, it would still be able to spy. No way it could hide location indicator or anything like that, but I doubt it could do that on other OSes (don't quote me on other OSes).
Nursie 3mo ago
I mean, some obvious things are there in the article, IMHO - - App isolation and hidden profiles (up to 32 separate profiles) - Verified Boot (tamper detection on every startup) So you can do stuff on there that's not going to tip off someone who's controlling enough to demand to see your phone, and so you'll at least be tipped off if someone compromises it.
- palata 3mo ago
  > hidden profiles (up to 32 separate profiles) I am a happy user of GrapheneOS, I don't know about "hidden" profiles. I am not sure what they are talking about. > App isolation That's an Android thing, not specific to GrapheneOS. > Verified Boot (tamper detection on every startup) That's an Android thing, not specific to GrapheneOS.

dmsehuang 3mo ago

[flagged]

appplication 3mo ago
Did you get lost from the music video thread?

trial_version 3mo ago

Haven't anybody noticed an iPhone in the illustration, or is it just my mind working that way?

Barbing 3mo ago
Stock photo - yeah that triple camera is equivalent to an Apple logo. Perhaps royalty-free image chosen without enough care or b/c it’s just a stock photo. (Or they already licensed that one.)

mmooss 3mo ago

Is GrapheneOS usable by everyone, including the most non-technical phone users, in a secure way? They also recommend at least 12 GB RAM. What about domestic abuse survivors requires that?

Cider9986 3mo ago
Yes it's usable by everyone. It's secure by default but anyone can make something insecure. For example granting malicious apps accessiblity permissions would not be great for security. It has 99.99% android app compatibility. Over 90% of banking and government apps work. These apps take extra measures to ban grapheneos, apps must put in work to make their app incompatible, not the other way around. I wouldn't say anyone can use it, if you can't sign in to a Google account by yourself then you would have trouble setting it up. But that would be similar on iOS. For the average person, definitely. There's no code or anything like that. Works just like stock Pixels. If I was giving it to my grandma then I would install her apps and she would be fine clicking icons. But similar on iOS. Yeah that RAM mention is very strange, not the best article.
- mmooss 3mo ago
  See my response to the sister comment, if you don't mind. > anyone can make something insecure Many consumer products, including iPhones to a significant degree, are designed to prevent this, much to the frustration of hackers. 'What do you mean I can't sideload random apps?' Or other products: It takes a lot of effort to make your car insecure, or to make your stove leak gas. They are carefully designed for safety.
rcMgD2BwE72F 3mo ago
Yes, I find it much easier to set up and use than any other Android phone. There’s less bloatware, and battery life is noticeably better. Two tips for beginners: Google Play Store and Google Play Services can be installed from the App Store. They aren’t included by default because GrapheneOS works fine without them. If a trusted app has trouble running, try enabling Exploit protection compatibility mode on the app’s Info screen (long-press the app icon → Info → Exploit protection). Check whether your bank is supported: https://privsec.dev/posts/android/banking-applications-compatibility-with-grapheneos/ https://privsec.dev/posts/android/banking-applications-compa.... If it isn’t, it likely depends on the Play Integrity API, which means it requires customers to stay under constant surveillance by the world’s largest advertising company, with no real security justification (see https://grapheneos.org/articles/attestation-compatibility-guide https://grapheneos.org/articles/attestation-compatibility-gu...). In that case, you should switch to a more trustworthy bank.

wolvesechoes 3mo ago

[flagged]

ButlerianJihad 3mo ago
This. I looked at this headline and I thought to myself, that I couldn't think of a stupider solution or a dumber sales pitch than "hey DV victims! use this complex gadget!" No. I mean, come on. This is the sort of thing where people read a poster in the ladies' room and then they carefully plan a discreet exit from their life of abuse. These are very low-tech escapes. They involve packing your necessities and slipping out while your abuser's not watching. And yes, the social safety nets, and the institutional protections, are the operational needs here. No gadgets, please.
- watwut 3mo ago
  Domestic abuse victim still need to call their workplace, childcare, manage bank account, pay bills. They have grandparents they contact, they have acquitances and friends. Otherwise said, live. The discret exist where you leave everything behind is the most disasterous situation to be in.
lewiscollard 3mo ago
> God, I hate techno-solutionism. I don't hate it nearly as much as this weird genre of accelerationism where any attempt to improve one's immediate circumstances is just a distraction from the real work that needs to be done.
- wolvesechoes 3mo ago
  And where the acceleration comes in in such description? Improving one's immediate circumstances in such context is talking to someone and asking for help, not spending days installing latest set of tools endorsed by privacy advocates and bricking one's phone due to accident while flashing privacy-friendly ROM.
  - 3mo ago

aucisson_masque 3mo ago

Why care about what Google know about you, in case of domestic abuse ? It's not like Google is going to sell your tracking data to abuser. There are many reasons to get rid of Google altogether, I just don't understand this one.

chmod775 3mo ago
Here's an article explaining why one should care: https://privacypros.com.au/privacy-hub/articles/dv-safe-phone-australia/ https://privacypros.com.au/privacy-hub/articles/dv-safe-phon... The tl;dr is that you can either share this data by accident through some sort of "locate my family" app, or because your abuser gets access to your Google/Apple account (for instance because you're signed in on another device they have access to). The threat model here can be: domestic abuse victim flees a situation at home in a hurry, stays signed in on a computer. Abuser uses the sign-in on that computer to track their phone, figures out they're staying at their aunt's place. Yes, you can avoid this on a regular Google phone as well, but that requires correctly configuring it (and a lot, such as location and search history, can be re-enabled remotely!). If you're running Graphene you are protected by default, rather than compromised by default.
- aucisson_masque 3mo ago
  Even on grapheneos you got to install the play store and play services to get most app to work, which mean connecting to a Google account. Technically you can use fdroid, Aurora store, or only use stock applications but if we are serious, not all domestic abuse victims are also geeks that know how to do all these things. They will need their apps, for instance for social security. Also, many people use their phone to pay nowadays, can't do on grapheneos. Domestic abuse is a serious threat and people are motivated to stay away from their abusers, but if you give them something so barebone that they can't do 90% of their stuff, a significant percentage of them will revert to their old behavior and risk compromising themselves. For instance, buying a second phone and connecting it to the old Google account just to browse tiktok.
  - Cider9986 3mo ago

virajk_31 3mo ago

[flagged]

deleted 3mo ago
[deleted]
Cider9986 3mo ago
What was troubling for you using it or setting it up?
- virajk_31 3mo ago
  [flagged]
  - grapheneos 3mo ago
    Many of the GrapheneOS features including Contact Scopes, Storage Scopes, Sensors toggle and things most users can understand and are very interested in having. Most of what GrapheneOS provides is under the hood which is a good thing for usability but there are plenty of features non-technical users can see and understand. Installing sandboxed Google Play is done by simply pressing the install button for it in the GrapheneOS App Store.

Namidairo 3mo ago

On this subject since it's an Australian seller and marketed as "DV safe". Australia has a national test of it's phone alert system in 10 days at 27/07/26, 2PM AEST. (People in North America would know it as Cell Alerts/Presidential Alerts etc.) There have been warnings that hidden phones will almost certainly sound, and their recommendation is to ether power off the phone or put it into airplane mode at least an hour before the test...

saltamimi 3mo ago
You should be able to disable these alerts via the Wireless Emergency Alerts.
- b112 3mo ago
  You cannot on many phones, and often phones will even lie when it says all categories are disabled, as some jurisdictions have laws against turning off some of the highest alert categories.
  - grapheneos 3mo ago
    GrapheneOS supports fully disabling wireless alerts via the Settings app. It's possible to disable it on other Android devices via ADB.
    - b112 3mo ago
      I've dealt with Android phones for which there was zero way to disable the highest alert, adb regardless. Unless you have root, it's often not possible. Yes, GrapheneOS of course allows this. Edit: re followup comment. No, adb cannot be used in all cases to disable the packages involved. At all. Some phones refuse to lets users disable some packages, no matter what. Yes, I know what I'm talking about. As someone with decades of Linux and Android experience, who often works nights, having Quebec police use presidental alerts... CRTC regardless, to warn of a child abducted by a parent 2000km away from me, is an exceptionally strong motivator. The sheer stupid of an alert you cannot control the volume, sound, and length of in any way, is absurd. Try going back to sleep after something screams at you, at your equiv of 2am is madness. By god I hate those alerts. So yes, I know. If you don't have root, and the phone won't let you disable some packages, you're done. And it's another reason I like GrapheneOS.

karlkloss 3mo ago

The site has CAPTCHAs, and I'm too dumb to solve them, because the pictures are so bad that I can't make out anything. How did we get there?

Cider9986 3mo ago
Try megaladon.jp/https://example.com https://example.com uses cloudflare instead
redleader55 3mo ago
It's funny the page recommends de-Googled phones, but requires a Google service(reCaptcha) to view the page.
OsrsNeedsf2P 3mo ago
Just open your favorite browser MCP and ask it to beat the captcha

____mr____ 3mo ago

Very weird post, I dont see how a victim with not enough agency to control what apps are on their phone will somehow be able to install a custom os

tripleee 3mo ago
You'd be surprised how easy GrapheneOS is to install. You literally do it through a browser with your phone connected via USB.
- palata 3mo ago
  I don't think it was the point of the parent. Sure it's easy to install, but the point is that if an abuser can somehow control your phone and install that kind of app, then they probably won't let you remove it. I am a (very happy) GrapheneOS user, I am certain that I can install a tracking app on it. I can even easily side-load an abusive app that would be banned on the Play Store... Like I would totally recommend GrapheneOS because it's great, but I don't think it solves the problem of "a domestic abuser can access your phone by making you give access to your phone".
- ____mr____ 3mo ago
  I know how easy it is to install graphene. But if your abuser is controlling the apps you install they can (should) see you installing a new OS or changing your phone?
jeroenhd 3mo ago
Installing Graphene can be done through the browser: https://grapheneos.org/install/web https://grapheneos.org/install/web It's not as easy as it can be (the text is aimed at people familiar with Android flashing) but in practice you need to toggle one setting, reboot holding the volume button, and then click four buttons in your browser in order, with the exact names for settings spelled out in the guide itself. I don't think wiping an abuser's malware is such a great solution unless you've already managed to get out of the DV situation. Perhaps GrapheneOS is a good idea on a secret second phone?

charcircuit 3mo ago

This is just the company use DV as a manipulation tactic to get you to buy their phones.

izacus 3mo ago

This is a submarine Advertisement for a company that will resell you a Google Pixel phone with likt 50% markup and preinstalled GrapheneOS. Let's not normalize this kind of profiteering out of OSS.

nunobrito 3mo ago

[flagged]

Cider9986 3mo ago
Grapheneos is the least shady OS. Why would a mass surveillance agency compromise hardware when they can simply spy at the software level though Google's deep insights into devices? Those Android distributions you refer to are not up to date, don't fully remove Google services, don't ship patches fast, don't improve exploit protections, have worse compatibility, don't make Google's services more private by running them in a sandbox, dont add additional important permissions. Grapheneos ships security updates faster then Google on pixels. If you want the best protection against zero days or mass surveillance, grapheneos is the best option. Grapheneos is fully run on donations and has provided information in various posts. Most crypto donations by volume are in Monero, Eth and Bitcoin have a few large donations. They are registered as a legal entity in Canada.
- nunobrito 3mo ago
  [flagged]
  - grapheneos 3mo ago
    There's a lot of evidence showing governments need to develop or purchase exploits for iPhones and Pixels. There's no evidence of there being any hardware backdoors. > It is also suspicious the preferential treatment given to that suspicious distro while all others are left in the dark. We don't receive any preferential treatment from Google. Android's business side disallowed us from receiving any form of partner access and took away the security patch preview access given to us by Android's security team. That has been the case for years. We have security preview patch access but it isn't from either Google. Google also hasn't ever allowed us to have early access to major Android releases but that doesn't mean we haven't obtained it. > Using hardware from a vendor that cannot be audited and every possible business interest in spying you. You can claim this about any hardware. Pixels meet our hardware requirements and we're expanding support to multiple upcoming Motorola Mobility (Lenovo) devices meeting our requirements. There will be a growing number of Motorola devices with official support for GrapheneOS. > Same excuse argued by Signal GrapheneOS has never received any government grants and is fully funded by donations. Signal didn't cover up that they were received Open Technology Fund grants and other government money. > It is easy to be transparent about donations rather than opaque: publish the operating costs and level of donations by a certified auditor without need to disclose names. The entirety of the GrapheneOS funding comes from donations. Our finances are audited every year as a requirement for a Canadian non-profit receiving more than $500k/year in revenue. The purpose of the audits is nearly entirely to make sure we're spending all of the money. It makes sure that all the money is accounted for and being spent appropriately. A subset of our expenses are specifically checked to make sure of it. It also involves more than that but it has little to do with where the donations are received from. Donations are largely made anonymously. We can see names for Wise and PayPal donations but they're often not the legal names of individuals or companies. Most donations are received via cryptocurrency. We can publish information on our revenue and expenses but it's not clear what that has to do with the unsubstantiated claims you're making about us or why it would stop you from doing it. > But you won't, strangely enough. You weren't responding to anyone that's part of the GrapheneOS project.

Sn4ppl 3mo ago

[dead]

pbgcp2026 3mo ago

Good luck with "age verification" ...

AussieWog93 3mo ago

This post is literally just SEO copy designed to sell degoogled phones to (justifiably) anxious DV victims? Their phones are more than twice as expensive as equivalent models at JF HiFi too (and 5-10x the price of an older, but still perfectly useful degoogled phone from Marketplace). Why is it on the front page of HN?

grapheneos 3mo ago
Getting a new phone is very useful to someone that's a victim of a controlling partner but it doesn't particularly need to be a GrapheneOS device. GrapheneOS has features useful for this including Auditor and standard Android profiles (Private Space, secondary users) with improvements but we're not specifically recommending it for this ourselves. People who are victims of this probably just need a new phone of any kind and to prioritize other things. > and 5-10x the price of an older, but still perfectly useful degoogled phone from Marketplace Devices with drastically worse privacy and security than the Android Open Source Project including lack of bare minimum updates aren't in the same space as GrapheneOS. It's generally better for people to install GrapheneOS themselves since it's very easy and saves a lot of money. It takes 10 minutes to install GrapheneOS with the web installer. It also avoids needing to trust a company to do it, although it's possible to verify an install done by someone else is genuine with the verified boot key fingerprint and/or Auditor. An existing install by someone else should be factory reset it to avoid any sketchy configuration.
- izacus 3mo ago
  Ok, but this is outright a scam for those victims, you realize that? A company profiteering massively from vulnerable people.
  - grapheneos 3mo ago
    There are a bunch of companies selling devices with GrapheneOS at a significant markup despite it being very easy for non-technical people to install it themselves in 10 to 20 minutes. There's a lot of demand for it and companies set prices based on what they can get away with charging. The linked post is a mess which was probably generated with an LLM. GrapheneOS does have useful properties for this even though it isn't the focus. Someone could write a proper article making a case for it even though this isn't one. GrapheneOS is free and we recommend people install it themselves with the web installer. People can also save a lot of money getting a used device, but we strongly recommend against an older device than a Pixel 8 due to support time. A used Pixel 8a tends to be the cheapest option. An important thing to watch out for with used devices is avoiding ones which were originally sold by carriers locking their devices. Some phone sellers wrongly label locked devices as being fully unlocked. If people buy a device with GrapheneOS instead of doing it themselves as we recommend, we a guide to follow to make sure it's genuine GrapheneOS and get rid of any strange software or configuration it ships with: https://grapheneos.org/faq#preinstalled-devices https://grapheneos.org/faq#preinstalled-devices

raffael_de 3mo ago

also recommended for government abuse victims.

b112 3mo ago

This is just dumb. I'm sorry, it's dumb. Why? Here we're discussing a domestic abuse situation, where people are forcing victims to hand over their phone, and have apps installed to keep track of them. Against their will. And the solution is to... what? Mysteriously have control of your own phone, and install an OS which prevents this? Seriously? I can just imagine it, when the unfamiliar OS is discovered, or the app not working. This is a domestic abuse situation, it's not about hidden sneakiness. It's about in-your-face control. It's about forced compliance, or else. It's about the abuser becoming exceptionally upset about their tracking not working, or about a new, mysterious OS. Installing GrapheneOS would not be tolerated. It would be an act which comes with reprisals. I can just imagine the reaction when the abuser can't get the phone to do as they wish, for the person to disclose what the OS is, or just to hand over their unlocked phone, and discover it's GrapheneOS, and Google it and see what it's for. It's actually horrible advice to advocate the someone in this situation installs GrapheneOS. How could it possibly help? GrapheneOS is great to protect from secret, unknown spying. Not some domestic abuse situation where spying isn't via secretness.

mnw21cam 3mo ago
Agreed. It'd be great for after the person has left the DV situation but not really beforehand.

surcap526 3mo ago

[dead]

inigyou 3mo ago

This the same country that exiled the creator of Session because privacy is illegal?

tranq_cassowary 3mo ago

GrapheneOS user and community member here. TLDR: The blog post that this thread links is full of misrepresentations and falsehoods about what GrapheneOS offers and also is heavy mismarketing of the phones and services PrivacyPros offer. I recommend to avoid PrivacyPros. The basic premise, that a secured and private phone, is useful for domestic abuse victims is of course okay. It is true that protecting your privacy from abusive family members can be useful and GrapheneOS' features, which are accurately described on their own website (contrary to the linked blog post), certainly help remove threats in that regard. See : https://grapheneos.org/features https://grapheneos.org/features . This is dependent on the specific situation, of course, (e.g. huge difference between ex-partner stalking you and a current partner you live with abusing you), because if you are forced to give your phone password at the threat of being hurt, a secure phone won't really help you a lot. While the licenses that GrapheneOS uses permit companies to establishes businesses using GrapheneOS software, it's not recommended by the project to buy pre-installed phones, certainly not pre-configured phones, like PrivacyPros offers. The install process of GrapheneOS is simple if you are using the WebInstaller, and there is a lot of free support available in the community chat rooms and fora if you bump into issues. This saves you a lot of money because you can buy a new, used or refurbished Pixel with the stock OS installed at a much lower price. If you install GrapheneOS itself the guide also mentions you have to verify the integrity of your installation. That also holds true for preinstalled phones, you should check the verified boot hash and set up Auditor app. Preconfigured phones should actually be completely factory reset, not only from the OS but preferably also from recovery mode and then set up again, with a check of the boot hash and a set up of Auditor app before you install any apps or start changing settings. You don't know what PrivacyPros has changed to the settings, what they loaded on the device and Auditor should be set up by yourself and straight from the beginning, before you start using the device, because pinning-based security is an important part of its security model and you would want to be pinned to a clean state from the post install. The blog post and also the PrivacyPros website where they promote and sell their phones is riddled with unnecessary misguided advice and also falsehoods about what GrapheneOS offers and what the dangers of the stock Pixel OS and Android in general are. Pixel OS and Android in general are portrayed way too negatively. I'll just give a few examples because it will cost me way too much time too debunk and correct all of it. These ones are verified easily by yourself and I hope it just makes clear you can discard everything PrivacyPros has written and makes clear you should just consult the official GrapheneOS website. So, they pretend as if Android and Pixels themselves don't have a permission model, multiple users and verified boot. This is untrue. GrapheneOS hardens the app sandbox and permissions model more and offers stuff like storage scopes to work around to broad permissions, but the sandbox and permissions model itself exists for Android in general. Verified boot is also a standard Android feature, and also exists on iPhones and even on MacOS and ChromeOS. Multiple users are part of Android, GrapheneOS just increases the available number of users and increases their usability. Also note that users don't improve sandboxing. Sandboxing and access control exist within profiles as well, profiles are mainly meant for increased isolation via separate user data, user settings and VPN slots. They also offer separate encryption keys allowing you to selectively put data at rest etc. The whole idea of a "ghost" profile and user profiles being at the centre to security and privacy is misguided. They also call about kill switches, Pixels don't have hardware kill switches and the software kill switches are just part of Android.

mrkeen 3mo ago

Reasonably happy with GrapheneOS, but the number of bugs (maybe more ecosystem bugs) would make me hesitant to suggest other people rely on it as a communication device. I have notifications turned ON for WhatsApp, Signal and Telegram. I never receive notifications from Telegram. I have to open that app to see if anyone said anything. WhatsApp and Signal notifications seem to vary between late or never? This is despite a constant notification reminder that Signal has Background connection enabled. Also I can only send messages to some whatsapp contacts. My messages appear as pending for a while and eventually turn into 'could not send'.

HybridStatAnim8 3mo ago
This is not an issue with GrapheneOS, this is an issue with your configuration, which is trivial to solve. All of those apps support using google services FCM for push notification delivery. I dont think Telegram has a fallback, and Signal and Whatsapp have power-intensive fallbacks. You may also need to reinstall these apps for them to detect google services (apps generally dont check for google services more than once on initial launch).
- classified 3mo ago
  That's not how I understand the meaning of "trivial".
  - lnfromx 3mo ago
    You just have to reinstall you apps using Google Play Store and install Google Play Services
- yolo1897 3mo ago
  No, whatsapp fallback to websockets is very power efficient unlike official signal app one, all you need is to set battery optimization to unrestricted for it.
  - lnfromx 3mo ago