5 ms·

Remember that the power is always with the people. We can enact any law we want

inigyou 3mo ago
Power in numbers is with the people. Power in votes is with whoever has the votes. Power in money is with the billionaires. Power comes in many forms and isn't fungible.
- Retric 3mo ago
  No, Money, Votes, etc has value because the general public gives it value. All billionaires could be instantly broke if the general public decided they were broke. Votes are ultimately a method of control not an inherent power unto themselves. Societies have gotten really good at convincing people they don’t have power so it’s rarely exercised but it’s always worth remembering the difference between abstraction and the underlying reality.
  - inigyou 3mo ago
    If I stop believing that money has value, men with guns will come to my house and force me out of it and change the locks. If they stop believing money has value (so they wouldn't want to come to my house), men with guns will come to their house, force them out of it and change the locks. This isn't a voluntary system, it's a forcibly imposed one.
    - Retric 3mo ago
      > If they stop believing money has value (so they wouldn't want to come to my house), men with guns will come to their house You’re assuming there’s going to be large groups of people that believe money still has value. However, there’s nothing inherently different about the first group of people with guns and the second group of people with guns. If hypothetically there’s a large moon heading to earth so everyone is going to die, everyone is responding to the same situation. Less extreme situations result in societal collapse, and that’s just one of many options.
    - maerF0x0 3mo ago
      I believe the parent was referring to the power to do something with the money. (Not in what one owes). In a decent society there are things no amount of money can buy, and things that take inordinate amounts that would only corrupt a sick fraction of the populace. That is part of what is gross about Epstein's scale, it made many of us realize that there is a price on those specific things and it wasn't just a sociopathic microslice of society, but seemingly "all" (lots, most, too many -- choose your term) of the people in power. Additionally Lobbying shows us the amount of money for corruption is surprisingly low.
  - ClumsyPilot 3mo ago
    > value. All billionaires could be instantly broke if the general public decided they were broke. Are we taking about abolishing the fiat currency system or bringing back the guillotines ?
    - Retric 3mo ago
      Any of the above, the world could just decide arbitrarily everyone with 1+B is suddenly broke. That’s not likely but it doesn’t break the laws of physics or anything.
      - ClumsyPilot 3mo ago
        Nice to meet a fellow appreciated of the French revolution. There aren’t many of us these days.
  - dd8601fn 3mo ago
    Eh. The people exercise their power constantly. Only historically not in the ways some people (read as: me) would prefer.
mingus88 3mo ago
ok but who enforces the law? If you haven’t been paying attention lately, laws are only as good as they are enforced and it has become obvious that the ruling class is not going to enforce laws against themselves. The solution here is not something most people are willing to inconvenience themselves over
- user3939382 3mo ago
  Laws are meaningless de jure. Especially where megacorps are concerned, the de facto law (ie the only one that matters) is the text, multiplied by the enforcement mechanism, multiplied by the political will to enforce, multiplied by the 10-15 year process of the megacorps draining their legal warchests into challenges and appeals. Then, after all that, maybe… you get a change to corporate behavior. The laws in this country are primarily written by and for large corporations. They’re not going to meaningfully practically restrain them just because something got passed.
- smallmancontrov 3mo ago
  Rewind a bit over 100 years and the robber barons had an iron grip over the US economy, US politics, and people who understood the mechanisms despaired at ever prying it away from them. Then the wind shifted and, suddenly, we could and we did. It took them decades to undo that progress and decades more to reassert their grip. Don't self-sabotage by imagining that it is impossible to achieve change through democracy. We've done it before and we can do it again.
  - voakbasda 3mo ago
    Can we though? There is marked difference in how the government reacts to populist demands. Notably, they learned from Vietnam how to manipulate the population to divide public opinion. I am not sure people today can overcome such organized machinations.
    - smallmancontrov 3mo ago
      Of course we can. Using foreign wars to prosecute domestic agenda is a strategy that predates written history, let alone Vietnam. Rulers have always understood which levers were available to them, this is not a modern discovery. Classical history in particular is full of this sort of thing and worse in a democratic context, which is comforting in the sense of where we stand and concerning in the sense of where things could go. Machinations were always organized. I'm reading about Louis Brandeis and I'm struck by how familiar the robber baron talking points are; they are exactly the talking points I heard from neoliberals growing up. Time is a flat circle when it comes to antitrust. Also: they tried to coup FDR! They got themselves a strongman figurehead and everything, it just didn't work. I'd actually give us the advantage today: the information environment is messier and more difficult to control and machine politics is barely starting to form rather than firmly established everywhere at every level.
shuwix 3mo ago
In democracy, power comes from demos. In capitalism, power comes from capital. Demos doesn't have capital. People never had power. Whenever they've thought they won ... they just damaged position of someone powerful for someone even more powerful without even knowing it.
- AnthonyMouse 3mo ago
  > In democracy, power comes from demos. In capitalism, power comes from capital. By this logic, in consumerism power comes from consumers, but maybe it's more complicated than that?
Forgeties79 3mo ago
Unless you’re in, say, Ohio, where the government will simply overrule decisive mandates with years of procedural nonsense https://ohiocapitaljournal.com/2026/03/31/ohio-republican-lawmakers-keep-trying-to-override-voters-and-go-around-abortion-rights-amendment/ https://ohiocapitaljournal.com/2026/03/31/ohio-republican-la...
- stronglikedan 3mo ago
  EU Chat Control would like a word as well
- p_j_w 3mo ago
  Ohioans need to elect better reps then, don't they?
  - Forgeties79 3mo ago
    It’s a lot easier to act as a few people than as millions. Let’s not pretend this is some fair fight.
    - johnnyanmac 2mo ago
      No one ever said life is fair. Most people also eventually understand that you'll always need to fight for what is right.
- hdgvhicv 3mo ago
  The government is selected by the people. If the people decide to elect a comedian with a dustbin on their head, they can do. That apples to Chicago as much as Clacton
  - Forgeties79 3mo ago
    That reads to me like a hand wavy an excuse for not asking what we can do to make our system more representative of the voters’ will when it should be.
  - 3mo ago
papyrus9244 3mo ago
Laws are great and all. But what we really need is a massive boycott. Stop buying shit manufactured or sold by Sony for a year. That alone will probably force them to backtrack every single anti consumer decision they've made recently.
- MSFT_Edging 3mo ago
  For the love of god please understand 80% of people are trying to just get on day by day. They don't give a shit about any of this. They probably don't even realize it's happening. Some subset of them might be hit by this but most just don't care. The point of a government in society is for people who give a shit to guide this kind of thing.
  - cindyllm 3mo ago
    [dead]
  - matheusmoreira 3mo ago
    No, I won't understand. These people who don't give a shit, they are the problem. They're the ones who finance these corporations and enable their abusive practices.
    - mafuy 3mo ago
      They are indeed part of the problem, but you cannot blame them. You have to blame those who caused their situation to be so dire, making them lack support. These people work 2 jobs, have a young kid, a demented parent or a bedridden sister that need constant support. If they take the time to give a shit about politics, their dependent dies. You don't seem to know how incredibly stressful and exhausting the life of some people is. Do something about their situation that gives them the time to participate in real life. Don't blame them for trying to survive with all their might, and not go to council hall twice a week.
      - CrimsonCape 3mo ago
edm0nd 3mo ago
the power is not with the people (us) but with the people in power (corpos and politicians). We (they) can enact any laws we (they) want.
jjav 3mo ago
> We can enact any law we want And the government is free to ignore all the laws, as witnessed by 2026 in the US.

Power in numbers is with the people. Power in votes is with whoever has the votes. Power in money is with the billionaires. Power comes in many forms and isn't fungible.

Retric 3mo ago
No, Money, Votes, etc has value because the general public gives it value. All billionaires could be instantly broke if the general public decided they were broke. Votes are ultimately a method of control not an inherent power unto themselves. Societies have gotten really good at convincing people they don’t have power so it’s rarely exercised but it’s always worth remembering the difference between abstraction and the underlying reality.
- inigyou 3mo ago
  If I stop believing that money has value, men with guns will come to my house and force me out of it and change the locks. If they stop believing money has value (so they wouldn't want to come to my house), men with guns will come to their house, force them out of it and change the locks. This isn't a voluntary system, it's a forcibly imposed one.
  - Retric 3mo ago
    > If they stop believing money has value (so they wouldn't want to come to my house), men with guns will come to their house You’re assuming there’s going to be large groups of people that believe money still has value. However, there’s nothing inherently different about the first group of people with guns and the second group of people with guns. If hypothetically there’s a large moon heading to earth so everyone is going to die, everyone is responding to the same situation. Less extreme situations result in societal collapse, and that’s just one of many options.
  - maerF0x0 3mo ago
    I believe the parent was referring to the power to do something with the money. (Not in what one owes). In a decent society there are things no amount of money can buy, and things that take inordinate amounts that would only corrupt a sick fraction of the populace. That is part of what is gross about Epstein's scale, it made many of us realize that there is a price on those specific things and it wasn't just a sociopathic microslice of society, but seemingly "all" (lots, most, too many -- choose your term) of the people in power. Additionally Lobbying shows us the amount of money for corruption is surprisingly low.
- ClumsyPilot 3mo ago
  > value. All billionaires could be instantly broke if the general public decided they were broke. Are we taking about abolishing the fiat currency system or bringing back the guillotines ?
  - Retric 3mo ago
    Any of the above, the world could just decide arbitrarily everyone with 1+B is suddenly broke. That’s not likely but it doesn’t break the laws of physics or anything.
    - ClumsyPilot 3mo ago
      Nice to meet a fellow appreciated of the French revolution. There aren’t many of us these days.
- dd8601fn 3mo ago
  Eh. The people exercise their power constantly. Only historically not in the ways some people (read as: me) would prefer.

mingus88 3mo ago

ok but who enforces the law? If you haven’t been paying attention lately, laws are only as good as they are enforced and it has become obvious that the ruling class is not going to enforce laws against themselves. The solution here is not something most people are willing to inconvenience themselves over

user3939382 3mo ago
Laws are meaningless de jure. Especially where megacorps are concerned, the de facto law (ie the only one that matters) is the text, multiplied by the enforcement mechanism, multiplied by the political will to enforce, multiplied by the 10-15 year process of the megacorps draining their legal warchests into challenges and appeals. Then, after all that, maybe… you get a change to corporate behavior. The laws in this country are primarily written by and for large corporations. They’re not going to meaningfully practically restrain them just because something got passed.
smallmancontrov 3mo ago
Rewind a bit over 100 years and the robber barons had an iron grip over the US economy, US politics, and people who understood the mechanisms despaired at ever prying it away from them. Then the wind shifted and, suddenly, we could and we did. It took them decades to undo that progress and decades more to reassert their grip. Don't self-sabotage by imagining that it is impossible to achieve change through democracy. We've done it before and we can do it again.
- voakbasda 3mo ago
  Can we though? There is marked difference in how the government reacts to populist demands. Notably, they learned from Vietnam how to manipulate the population to divide public opinion. I am not sure people today can overcome such organized machinations.
  - smallmancontrov 3mo ago
    Of course we can. Using foreign wars to prosecute domestic agenda is a strategy that predates written history, let alone Vietnam. Rulers have always understood which levers were available to them, this is not a modern discovery. Classical history in particular is full of this sort of thing and worse in a democratic context, which is comforting in the sense of where we stand and concerning in the sense of where things could go. Machinations were always organized. I'm reading about Louis Brandeis and I'm struck by how familiar the robber baron talking points are; they are exactly the talking points I heard from neoliberals growing up. Time is a flat circle when it comes to antitrust. Also: they tried to coup FDR! They got themselves a strongman figurehead and everything, it just didn't work. I'd actually give us the advantage today: the information environment is messier and more difficult to control and machine politics is barely starting to form rather than firmly established everywhere at every level.

shuwix 3mo ago

In democracy, power comes from demos. In capitalism, power comes from capital. Demos doesn't have capital. People never had power. Whenever they've thought they won ... they just damaged position of someone powerful for someone even more powerful without even knowing it.

AnthonyMouse 3mo ago
> In democracy, power comes from demos. In capitalism, power comes from capital. By this logic, in consumerism power comes from consumers, but maybe it's more complicated than that?

Forgeties79 3mo ago

Unless you’re in, say, Ohio, where the government will simply overrule decisive mandates with years of procedural nonsense https://ohiocapitaljournal.com/2026/03/31/ohio-republican-lawmakers-keep-trying-to-override-voters-and-go-around-abortion-rights-amendment/ https://ohiocapitaljournal.com/2026/03/31/ohio-republican-la...

stronglikedan 3mo ago
EU Chat Control would like a word as well
p_j_w 3mo ago
Ohioans need to elect better reps then, don't they?
- Forgeties79 3mo ago
  It’s a lot easier to act as a few people than as millions. Let’s not pretend this is some fair fight.
  - johnnyanmac 2mo ago
    No one ever said life is fair. Most people also eventually understand that you'll always need to fight for what is right.
hdgvhicv 3mo ago
The government is selected by the people. If the people decide to elect a comedian with a dustbin on their head, they can do. That apples to Chicago as much as Clacton
- Forgeties79 3mo ago
  That reads to me like a hand wavy an excuse for not asking what we can do to make our system more representative of the voters’ will when it should be.
- 3mo ago

papyrus9244 3mo ago

Laws are great and all. But what we really need is a massive boycott. Stop buying shit manufactured or sold by Sony for a year. That alone will probably force them to backtrack every single anti consumer decision they've made recently.

MSFT_Edging 3mo ago
For the love of god please understand 80% of people are trying to just get on day by day. They don't give a shit about any of this. They probably don't even realize it's happening. Some subset of them might be hit by this but most just don't care. The point of a government in society is for people who give a shit to guide this kind of thing.
- cindyllm 3mo ago
  [dead]
- matheusmoreira 3mo ago
  No, I won't understand. These people who don't give a shit, they are the problem. They're the ones who finance these corporations and enable their abusive practices.
  - mafuy 3mo ago
    They are indeed part of the problem, but you cannot blame them. You have to blame those who caused their situation to be so dire, making them lack support. These people work 2 jobs, have a young kid, a demented parent or a bedridden sister that need constant support. If they take the time to give a shit about politics, their dependent dies. You don't seem to know how incredibly stressful and exhausting the life of some people is. Do something about their situation that gives them the time to participate in real life. Don't blame them for trying to survive with all their might, and not go to council hall twice a week.
    - CrimsonCape 3mo ago

edm0nd 3mo ago

the power is not with the people (us) but with the people in power (corpos and politicians). We (they) can enact any laws we (they) want.

jjav 3mo ago

> We can enact any law we want And the government is free to ignore all the laws, as witnessed by 2026 in the US.