7 ms·

Why Asians are Often Better at Math

21 points by tylermenezes 14y ago

Jimmy 14y ago
Interesting, but your ability to memorize sequences of numbers is almost completely irrelevant to your ability to do higher-level math, and the hypothesis that memorization "compounds into more knowledge and better math skills for these Chinese children" is shaky at best. Also, the statement "Asians are better than Americans at math" needs some qualification. Most of the world's best mathematicians come from either the USA or Europe (although there are of course many talented Asian mathematicians, like Tao, Mochizuki, etc).
- mistercow 14y ago
  >Interesting, but your ability to memorize sequences of numbers is almost completely irrelevant to your ability to do higher-level math Your digit span does affect your ability to do mental arithmetic, and mental arithmetic is an indispensable tool when meditating on equations and algorithms so that you can understand their behavior.
  - karamazov 14y ago
    Mental arithmetic is not that useful in higher math - past calculus you're more likely to use letters than numbers, and in many cases you're not working directly with numbers anyway.
    - mistercow 14y ago
      I don't think when people say "Asians are often better at math", that they are talking about post-calculus.
      - rdl 14y ago
        I think they mean algebra and higher, not arithmetic. So basically junior high school and better. Even algebra doesn't benefit that much from simple counting and arithmetic. "Good at math" means different things based on age, but an adult who is good at adding numbers and doing percentages is probably at a supermarket or a waiter, or MAYBE a bookkeeper or a baseball fan, not a "good at math" engineer or scientist. I don't think people are complaining that Asians are taking all the valuable service industry jobs adding prices and computing tips in their heads. I always found more (Russian) jews in upper level math classes than Asians, though. The most-Asian major at MIT was "anything plausibly pre-med", like bio, chem, or chem-eng. 8 and 18 were mostly Jewish, mostly non-US origin.
jopt 14y ago
Wild speculation.
thingummywut 14y ago
What about Asians in the US that speak English? Title should include "Chinese" not "Asian". The article only references Chinese. How does pronouncing numbers help with anything more complex than counting?
- tazzy531 14y ago
  Most Asian counting systems are similar to the Chinese. >How does pronouncing numbers help with anything more complex than counting? Majority of the population don't use much beyond very basic math. The ability to do simple arithmetic on a day to day basis for most is an important skill to have.
ttflee 14y ago
Shouldn't the title be revised as 'Why Asians are Often Better at Arithmatic'? BTW, the way to read out equations and expressions of algebra and calculus feels to me a little alien in Chinese. The English version feels OK.
dchichkov 14y ago
Well, http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0923110.html http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0923110.html
EdJiang 14y ago
I was kinda skeptical as well, because I actually don't speak much Chinese (even though I learned it at a young age), so I think in English, yet I was very good at math in HS (competitive). Yet, looking back, I realized that I did think of numbers like "four two" instead of "forty two", so doing calculations like "[four | two] plus [two | eight] equals [six | ten] -> 70". Hence, faster. It’s actually interesting — I kind of see this article as more of an analogy. I'm don't think it's the main cause of a performance gap, but it definitely could contribute. Imagine: what if this article was about developing a typical business app with C# vs. C++ — instead of “you can count from 0-10 faster”, it’s “you can manipulate strings faster” (measured in dev time, not CPU cycles). Developers will switch to newer languages that make it more efficient. Eg, Paul Graham's arguments about how LISP made Viaweb successful. So, I'm curious. Developers will switch languages because they're more efficient and expressive. But it's hard to switch languages. Not impossible, though. Will English evolve to become more efficient over time? Or will we all switch to a newer language because it's more efficient?
diminoten 14y ago
Bill Burr has a comedy bit about exactly this, I was just watching it on Netflix.
gvb 14y ago
Ironically, French tend to be good at math (they told me so when I was over there). Zero through 69 uses forms similar to counting in English (inferior to Chinese per the OP), and then it goes all wonky. 70 is sixty-ten, 71 is sixty-eleven,... but then 80 is four-twenty, and then 90 is four-twenty-ten, -eleven,... Ouch! The rational is that they get very good at adding, multiplying, and then simplifying funky numbers in their heads (e.g. 73 + 92 would be sixty-eleven + four-twenty-twelve = hundred-sixty-five). Or maybe they get really good at memorizing addition tables, which would enhance their memorization skills. Or maybe they were just bragging over beer (good beer, excellent wine, très bon food ;-). Ref: http://french.about.com/od/vocabulary/ss/numbers_3.htm http://french.about.com/od/vocabulary/ss/numbers_3.htm http://french.about.com/od/vocabulary/ss/numbers_4.htm http://french.about.com/od/vocabulary/ss/numbers_4.htm
rayiner 14y ago
I'm not quite sure why my comment about asian parents hitting their kids when they don't learn their math was deleted. The culture of corporal punishment in asia is totally different, and the ends to which it is used is totally different. There is a lot more riding on asian kids getting good at math than for american kids. Does it help delicate western sensibilities if I point out I'm asian?
mistercow 14y ago
Based on this concept, I've created a base-100 number system that encodes each digit into a single simple syllable which is designed so that they can be strung into unambiguous sequences. So if your mental phonological loop can hold 10 fast syllables, you can hold the equivalent of 20 decimal digits in this system. The system is logically arranged so it's pretty easy to memorize, and since it's base 100, the conversion to and from decimal is simple. The next step after is to memorize the addition and multiplication tables using them, which are of course much larger than in base 10. Once those become second nature, it should be possible to do mental arithmetic more quickly and with more mental registers to work with for larger numbers. I'm not nearly to that point yet, but it's a fun experiment. If people are interested, I can toss what I have up on github and write up a detailed explanation of the system. So far, I have a few little HTML5 drills for learning to convert, and an Anki deck for the addition tables.
- damianpeckett 14y ago
  Now that does sound intriguing.
maxwin 14y ago
This is kind of true. In my freshman year, I didn't even use calculator for my calculus class. However, for highly abstract math, I don't think I have an advantage.
w1ntermute 14y ago
This is bullshit. The first example with memorizing the numbers doesn't work with Japanese - "hachi, ni, yon, roku, shichi, go, ichi" isn't faster than "eight, two, four, six, seven, five, one", but the Japanese are no different from the Chinese when it comes to their math prowess. I don't understand why it's so hard for Americans to admit that Asian success in areas like math is simply because they work harder at it. In Asian cultures, there's a belief that your success is dependent on how hard you work, not your innate "intelligence". In America, if a child does well in school, he gets told over and over that he's smart, while a child who doesn't do well is told he's stupid. In Asia, if a child does well, he's told that he did a good job studying hard, while those who don't do well are told to try harder.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- mistercow 14y ago
  > "hachi, ni, yon, roku, shichi, go, ichi" isn't faster than "eight, two, four, six, seven, five, one" Japanese has two sets of numbers. One is the one you gave, which is based on Japanese, and the other got imported along with kanji from China. Using the shortest forms of the kun readings, it would be "ya, fu, yo, mu, na, i, hito". I don't know if a typical Japanese speaker would memorize them that way, but since those forms are ingrained in the language, they should be able to do so without significant effort. Now, to an English speaker, it may look like a wash; both appear to be strings of eight syllables. But the kun-based numeral sounds are in fact quite a bit faster.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - w1ntermute 14y ago
    > One is the one you gave, which is based on Japanese, and the other got imported along with kanji from China. Wrong. "hachi", "ni", "roku", "shichi", "go", and "ichi" are Chinese-origin (on'yomi), not Japanese-origin (kun'yomi). The only number in my example that is Japanese-origin is "yon"[0], which is interchangeable with "shi" (the on'yomi equivalent) in many contexts. > Using the shortest forms of the kun readings, it would be "ya, fu, yo, mu, na, i, hito". Those readings are not used to count by native Japanese speakers (I speak Japanese and have lived in Japan), and I can't think of any examples off the top of my head where they would be used on their own. > I don't know if a typical Japanese speaker would memorize them that way, but since those forms are ingrained in the language, they should be able to do so without significant effort. They do not. 0: http://www.syvum.com/cgi/online/serve.cgi/squizzes/japanese/japanese_kanji_characters_3.html?table http://www.syvum.com/cgi/online/serve.cgi/squizzes/japanese/...
mavlee 14y ago
I've seen this argument come up from time to time in blogs and newspapers, but I don't buy it. While I agree that this may allow for Asian students to do basic arithmetic slightly faster at a younger age, learning concepts such as a geometry, linear algebra or calculus do not depend on my ability to count.
thuffy 14y ago
Let's be frank here: Now I am Christian, but also being an evolutionist, even I can see the truth here: North Asians are better at math than Europeans due to greater than two thousand years of Christian dysgenics.
- rdl 14y ago
  What exactly do you mean?
jinushaun 14y ago
Not all Asians are Chinese. It's not a mystery. It's tiger parenting, which Western culture lacks.

21 points by tylermenezes 14y ago

Jimmy 14y ago

Interesting, but your ability to memorize sequences of numbers is almost completely irrelevant to your ability to do higher-level math, and the hypothesis that memorization "compounds into more knowledge and better math skills for these Chinese children" is shaky at best. Also, the statement "Asians are better than Americans at math" needs some qualification. Most of the world's best mathematicians come from either the USA or Europe (although there are of course many talented Asian mathematicians, like Tao, Mochizuki, etc).

mistercow 14y ago
>Interesting, but your ability to memorize sequences of numbers is almost completely irrelevant to your ability to do higher-level math Your digit span does affect your ability to do mental arithmetic, and mental arithmetic is an indispensable tool when meditating on equations and algorithms so that you can understand their behavior.
- karamazov 14y ago
  Mental arithmetic is not that useful in higher math - past calculus you're more likely to use letters than numbers, and in many cases you're not working directly with numbers anyway.
  - mistercow 14y ago
    I don't think when people say "Asians are often better at math", that they are talking about post-calculus.
    - rdl 14y ago
      I think they mean algebra and higher, not arithmetic. So basically junior high school and better. Even algebra doesn't benefit that much from simple counting and arithmetic. "Good at math" means different things based on age, but an adult who is good at adding numbers and doing percentages is probably at a supermarket or a waiter, or MAYBE a bookkeeper or a baseball fan, not a "good at math" engineer or scientist. I don't think people are complaining that Asians are taking all the valuable service industry jobs adding prices and computing tips in their heads. I always found more (Russian) jews in upper level math classes than Asians, though. The most-Asian major at MIT was "anything plausibly pre-med", like bio, chem, or chem-eng. 8 and 18 were mostly Jewish, mostly non-US origin.

jopt 14y ago

Wild speculation.

thingummywut 14y ago

What about Asians in the US that speak English? Title should include "Chinese" not "Asian". The article only references Chinese. How does pronouncing numbers help with anything more complex than counting?

tazzy531 14y ago
Most Asian counting systems are similar to the Chinese. >How does pronouncing numbers help with anything more complex than counting? Majority of the population don't use much beyond very basic math. The ability to do simple arithmetic on a day to day basis for most is an important skill to have.

ttflee 14y ago

Shouldn't the title be revised as 'Why Asians are Often Better at Arithmatic'? BTW, the way to read out equations and expressions of algebra and calculus feels to me a little alien in Chinese. The English version feels OK.

dchichkov 14y ago

Well, http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0923110.html http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0923110.html

EdJiang 14y ago

I was kinda skeptical as well, because I actually don't speak much Chinese (even though I learned it at a young age), so I think in English, yet I was very good at math in HS (competitive). Yet, looking back, I realized that I did think of numbers like "four two" instead of "forty two", so doing calculations like "[four | two] plus [two | eight] equals [six | ten] -> 70". Hence, faster. It’s actually interesting — I kind of see this article as more of an analogy. I'm don't think it's the main cause of a performance gap, but it definitely could contribute. Imagine: what if this article was about developing a typical business app with C# vs. C++ — instead of “you can count from 0-10 faster”, it’s “you can manipulate strings faster” (measured in dev time, not CPU cycles). Developers will switch to newer languages that make it more efficient. Eg, Paul Graham's arguments about how LISP made Viaweb successful. So, I'm curious. Developers will switch languages because they're more efficient and expressive. But it's hard to switch languages. Not impossible, though. Will English evolve to become more efficient over time? Or will we all switch to a newer language because it's more efficient?

diminoten 14y ago

Bill Burr has a comedy bit about exactly this, I was just watching it on Netflix.

gvb 14y ago

Ironically, French tend to be good at math (they told me so when I was over there). Zero through 69 uses forms similar to counting in English (inferior to Chinese per the OP), and then it goes all wonky. 70 is sixty-ten, 71 is sixty-eleven,... but then 80 is four-twenty, and then 90 is four-twenty-ten, -eleven,... Ouch! The rational is that they get very good at adding, multiplying, and then simplifying funky numbers in their heads (e.g. 73 + 92 would be sixty-eleven + four-twenty-twelve = hundred-sixty-five). Or maybe they get really good at memorizing addition tables, which would enhance their memorization skills. Or maybe they were just bragging over beer (good beer, excellent wine, très bon food ;-). Ref: http://french.about.com/od/vocabulary/ss/numbers_3.htm http://french.about.com/od/vocabulary/ss/numbers_3.htm http://french.about.com/od/vocabulary/ss/numbers_4.htm http://french.about.com/od/vocabulary/ss/numbers_4.htm

rayiner 14y ago

I'm not quite sure why my comment about asian parents hitting their kids when they don't learn their math was deleted. The culture of corporal punishment in asia is totally different, and the ends to which it is used is totally different. There is a lot more riding on asian kids getting good at math than for american kids. Does it help delicate western sensibilities if I point out I'm asian?

mistercow 14y ago

Based on this concept, I've created a base-100 number system that encodes each digit into a single simple syllable which is designed so that they can be strung into unambiguous sequences. So if your mental phonological loop can hold 10 fast syllables, you can hold the equivalent of 20 decimal digits in this system. The system is logically arranged so it's pretty easy to memorize, and since it's base 100, the conversion to and from decimal is simple. The next step after is to memorize the addition and multiplication tables using them, which are of course much larger than in base 10. Once those become second nature, it should be possible to do mental arithmetic more quickly and with more mental registers to work with for larger numbers. I'm not nearly to that point yet, but it's a fun experiment. If people are interested, I can toss what I have up on github and write up a detailed explanation of the system. So far, I have a few little HTML5 drills for learning to convert, and an Anki deck for the addition tables.

damianpeckett 14y ago
Now that does sound intriguing.

maxwin 14y ago

This is kind of true. In my freshman year, I didn't even use calculator for my calculus class. However, for highly abstract math, I don't think I have an advantage.

w1ntermute 14y ago

This is bullshit. The first example with memorizing the numbers doesn't work with Japanese - "hachi, ni, yon, roku, shichi, go, ichi" isn't faster than "eight, two, four, six, seven, five, one", but the Japanese are no different from the Chinese when it comes to their math prowess. I don't understand why it's so hard for Americans to admit that Asian success in areas like math is simply because they work harder at it. In Asian cultures, there's a belief that your success is dependent on how hard you work, not your innate "intelligence". In America, if a child does well in school, he gets told over and over that he's smart, while a child who doesn't do well is told he's stupid. In Asia, if a child does well, he's told that he did a good job studying hard, while those who don't do well are told to try harder.

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
mistercow 14y ago
> "hachi, ni, yon, roku, shichi, go, ichi" isn't faster than "eight, two, four, six, seven, five, one" Japanese has two sets of numbers. One is the one you gave, which is based on Japanese, and the other got imported along with kanji from China. Using the shortest forms of the kun readings, it would be "ya, fu, yo, mu, na, i, hito". I don't know if a typical Japanese speaker would memorize them that way, but since those forms are ingrained in the language, they should be able to do so without significant effort. Now, to an English speaker, it may look like a wash; both appear to be strings of eight syllables. But the kun-based numeral sounds are in fact quite a bit faster.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- w1ntermute 14y ago
  > One is the one you gave, which is based on Japanese, and the other got imported along with kanji from China. Wrong. "hachi", "ni", "roku", "shichi", "go", and "ichi" are Chinese-origin (on'yomi), not Japanese-origin (kun'yomi). The only number in my example that is Japanese-origin is "yon"[0], which is interchangeable with "shi" (the on'yomi equivalent) in many contexts. > Using the shortest forms of the kun readings, it would be "ya, fu, yo, mu, na, i, hito". Those readings are not used to count by native Japanese speakers (I speak Japanese and have lived in Japan), and I can't think of any examples off the top of my head where they would be used on their own. > I don't know if a typical Japanese speaker would memorize them that way, but since those forms are ingrained in the language, they should be able to do so without significant effort. They do not. 0: http://www.syvum.com/cgi/online/serve.cgi/squizzes/japanese/japanese_kanji_characters_3.html?table http://www.syvum.com/cgi/online/serve.cgi/squizzes/japanese/...

mavlee 14y ago

I've seen this argument come up from time to time in blogs and newspapers, but I don't buy it. While I agree that this may allow for Asian students to do basic arithmetic slightly faster at a younger age, learning concepts such as a geometry, linear algebra or calculus do not depend on my ability to count.

thuffy 14y ago

Let's be frank here: Now I am Christian, but also being an evolutionist, even I can see the truth here: North Asians are better at math than Europeans due to greater than two thousand years of Christian dysgenics.

rdl 14y ago
What exactly do you mean?

jinushaun 14y ago

Not all Asians are Chinese. It's not a mystery. It's tiger parenting, which Western culture lacks.