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>Seriously addictive drugs being sold OTC Nicotine is one of the most addictive substances in existence and it is sold everywhere. If governments actually care

>Seriously addictive drugs being sold OTC Nicotine is one of the most addictive substances in existence and it is sold everywhere. If governments actually cared about addiction risk, a whole lot of things would have to disappear from normal stores.

Forgeties79 3mo ago
Nicotine is far more regulated and generally won’t lead you to pass out behind the wheel of a car or drown in a hot tub. You can’t even smoke in the vicinity of many buildings, but kratom? It’s basically an unregulated opiod that anyone over 18 can get and use wherever, whenever, with little to no control over what’s actually in it because it’s not food, medicine, etc.
- sigmoid10 3mo ago
  So are most OTC drugs. Doesn't change the fact that you can get them everywhere. And long term nicotine use causes dependence similar to heroin.
  - Forgeties79 3mo ago
    It doesn’t even compare man. I am pro legalization of drugs but it doesn’t mean they should be as unregulated as kratom currently is
    - pstuart 3mo ago
      Drug regulation should be very simple: 1. Purity, strength, and disclosure of ingredients. 2. Responsible advertising/promotion/distribution. I'm pro kratom but I find it abhorrent the way it's marketed and sold without any warnings or acknowledgements of addiction.
  - ipaddr 3mo ago
    Not really but great talking point. The exact quote is it's as hard to quit smoking as heroin. But in reality getting off heroin cold turkey can kill you, where you need to be locked in room sweat it out. People quiting smoking still go to work but their mood is poor. Not the same at all.
- switchbak 3mo ago
  Also you can just walk in a farmer's field, pick a mushroom out of a cow patty and boom - you're high AF! Someone should regulate cow shit, there's little to no control over it!
  - sanktanglia 3mo ago
    most states require farmers to put additives in their cow feed to specifically prevent those mushrooms, they are already actively regulated
    - switchbak 3mo ago
      Thank God, we can't just have people getting high for free.
    - AngryData 3mo ago
      Got a source for that? Ive never heard of that in my life and ive worked on multiple dairy and beef farms.
    - amanaplanacanal 3mo ago
      You just made that up, didn't you?
      - switchbak 3mo ago
        Supposedly it’s an urban (rural) legend going around for a long time. Good story, even if it’s not true.
ipaddr 3mo ago
So is caffeine.
- ralph84 3mo ago
  And sugar
  - Forgeties79 3mo ago
    These are incredibly reductionist arguments y’all are engaging in.
    - rithdmc 3mo ago
      How so? Sugar is having taxes added in many jurisdictions due to the health effects & habituation it can cause.
      - Forgeties79 3mo ago
        Different things are bad in different ways and need to be handled differently. You can’t functionally just go “both can be addictive and kill people therefore your argument is moot.” You’ve removed all qualifiers and context. To compare them is to respond to a discussion on the threat of guns with some point about people weaponizing their cars and running people over because both can cause bodily harm. I think we can both agree that comparison strips all context and nuance from most conversations about guns OR cars and makes it difficult to talk about either in productive ways outside of the narrow/niche discussions. TL;DR: this comparison spikes the conversation. Sugar and kratom do not present enough analogous health issues or enough of the same types risks to those around you to warrant lumping them together like that.
        rithdmc 3mo ago
        We're talking about dangerous substances you can buy OTC, and the health implications of those. Of course kratom and sugar fall into that bucket.
vitally3643 3mo ago
You have to provide ID and be over 21 to purchase nicotine. You can't advertise nicotine products. You have to be licensed to sell nicotine products. Same for alcohol. Restrictions on who can buy, who can sell, and how you can advertise and market. These are not the same as some random pill from a gas station sold to anyone with cash with zero regulations, safety, restrictions, or even any requirement to tell you what's actually in it.
- newsclues 3mo ago
  When I was a kid, there were cigarette vending machines. I am not that old.
  - bullfightonmars 3mo ago
    Then what happened? Better regulation, better enforcement, anti-smoking advertising campaigns, banning public smoking, and drastically reduced amongst youth and the general public. Cigarette regulation to reduce smoking starting in the mid/late 90s is the poster child for public policy done well.
    - stasomatic 3mo ago
      I don't think it worked. I was floored by how much smoking I saw on a recent trip to Europe, by young people of all. Scary slogans on the packs, no effect. Cigs are barely a thing in the states now, you are kind of a low caste pariah if you smoke, but I guess vaping and cannabis picked up the baton. I am an ex pack-a-day smoker myself, but quit about 10y ago. Don't crave cigs or the smell, but do crave nicotine.
      - pests 3mo ago
        I think it did. I recently started collecting some sealed Pokemon products for my collection so been going to lines and camp outs and meeting new people. Our new friend group is about 8 people sometimes more. Not a single person smokes cigs. In a line with 20/30+ other people there might only be a single person stepping aside to light up. Sometimes its hard to even find a lighter for other purposes.
Legend2440 3mo ago
Governments have spent considerable effort on it, but it's tough to ban something as popular as tobacco or alcohol. Voters tend to get what they want, and a sizeable fraction of voters smoke or drink.
- pstuart 3mo ago
  > Voters tend to get what they want I wish that was true. In the case of tobacco and alcohol, there's enough monied interests to ensure it would never be illegal. So this defines the classic simple argument about the issue: alcohol and tobacco are dangerous and other than a weird House episode, have no medical value, and yet society has decided that some dangerous drugs are ok, because the right people are making money from it. Propaganda has effectively sold the War on Drugs as "protecting people", but it's never been about that -- it's about enabling tools of oppression.
  - Legend2440 3mo ago
    That's cynical nonsense and I don't believe a word of it. Prohibition was repealed by popular vote, not by bought-out politicians. And we're not 'oppressing' fent addicts by arresting them when they pass out on the sidewalk in front of my apartment. They are causing a problem for the rest of society that we now have to deal with. That's why we do the war on drugs.
    - pstuart 3mo ago
      Your certitude is not supported by your ignorance of history: Prohibition was that generation's war on drugs, and it's not pretty. The government went to obscene lengths to "discourage drinking": https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/government-poison-10000-americans/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/government-poison-10000-am... And the "voting" was the money'd class, not "the people": https://www.hagley.org/librarynews/prohibition-centennial https://www.hagley.org/librarynews/prohibition-centennial Let's not forget how well it funded organized crime, but not nearly to the extent that the current WoD has literally created the drug cartels south of the border. Moving on to your "observations" of failure. The fact that we literally have a fent crisis nationally shows that the war not only was an abject failure but literally created the fent crisis (cheaper and easier than heroin and easier to smuggle). As far as the oppression angle, there's plenty of documented history on this issue. For starters there's this: https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/race-mass-incarceration-and-disastrous-war-drugs https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/race... I've lost friends to drugs, my brother died of a heroin overdose and my mother died from complications of alcoholism and smoking. Your simple-minded dismissal of the problem is insulting to their memories and millions of others. Nobody should be doing fent recreationally, let alone passing out on the street. But if your answer to that problem is "Give the DEA billions of dollars more, and fill our prisons with those moral degnerates" then you are sadly mistaken.

Forgeties79 3mo ago

Nicotine is far more regulated and generally won’t lead you to pass out behind the wheel of a car or drown in a hot tub. You can’t even smoke in the vicinity of many buildings, but kratom? It’s basically an unregulated opiod that anyone over 18 can get and use wherever, whenever, with little to no control over what’s actually in it because it’s not food, medicine, etc.

sigmoid10 3mo ago
So are most OTC drugs. Doesn't change the fact that you can get them everywhere. And long term nicotine use causes dependence similar to heroin.
- Forgeties79 3mo ago
  It doesn’t even compare man. I am pro legalization of drugs but it doesn’t mean they should be as unregulated as kratom currently is
  - pstuart 3mo ago
    Drug regulation should be very simple: 1. Purity, strength, and disclosure of ingredients. 2. Responsible advertising/promotion/distribution. I'm pro kratom but I find it abhorrent the way it's marketed and sold without any warnings or acknowledgements of addiction.
- ipaddr 3mo ago
  Not really but great talking point. The exact quote is it's as hard to quit smoking as heroin. But in reality getting off heroin cold turkey can kill you, where you need to be locked in room sweat it out. People quiting smoking still go to work but their mood is poor. Not the same at all.
switchbak 3mo ago
Also you can just walk in a farmer's field, pick a mushroom out of a cow patty and boom - you're high AF! Someone should regulate cow shit, there's little to no control over it!
- sanktanglia 3mo ago
  most states require farmers to put additives in their cow feed to specifically prevent those mushrooms, they are already actively regulated
  - switchbak 3mo ago
    Thank God, we can't just have people getting high for free.
  - AngryData 3mo ago
    Got a source for that? Ive never heard of that in my life and ive worked on multiple dairy and beef farms.
  - amanaplanacanal 3mo ago
    You just made that up, didn't you?
    - switchbak 3mo ago
      Supposedly it’s an urban (rural) legend going around for a long time. Good story, even if it’s not true.

ipaddr 3mo ago

So is caffeine.

ralph84 3mo ago
And sugar
- Forgeties79 3mo ago
  These are incredibly reductionist arguments y’all are engaging in.
  - rithdmc 3mo ago
    How so? Sugar is having taxes added in many jurisdictions due to the health effects & habituation it can cause.
    - Forgeties79 3mo ago
      Different things are bad in different ways and need to be handled differently. You can’t functionally just go “both can be addictive and kill people therefore your argument is moot.” You’ve removed all qualifiers and context. To compare them is to respond to a discussion on the threat of guns with some point about people weaponizing their cars and running people over because both can cause bodily harm. I think we can both agree that comparison strips all context and nuance from most conversations about guns OR cars and makes it difficult to talk about either in productive ways outside of the narrow/niche discussions. TL;DR: this comparison spikes the conversation. Sugar and kratom do not present enough analogous health issues or enough of the same types risks to those around you to warrant lumping them together like that.
      - rithdmc 3mo ago
        We're talking about dangerous substances you can buy OTC, and the health implications of those. Of course kratom and sugar fall into that bucket.

vitally3643 3mo ago

You have to provide ID and be over 21 to purchase nicotine. You can't advertise nicotine products. You have to be licensed to sell nicotine products. Same for alcohol. Restrictions on who can buy, who can sell, and how you can advertise and market. These are not the same as some random pill from a gas station sold to anyone with cash with zero regulations, safety, restrictions, or even any requirement to tell you what's actually in it.

newsclues 3mo ago
When I was a kid, there were cigarette vending machines. I am not that old.
- bullfightonmars 3mo ago
  Then what happened? Better regulation, better enforcement, anti-smoking advertising campaigns, banning public smoking, and drastically reduced amongst youth and the general public. Cigarette regulation to reduce smoking starting in the mid/late 90s is the poster child for public policy done well.
  - stasomatic 3mo ago
    I don't think it worked. I was floored by how much smoking I saw on a recent trip to Europe, by young people of all. Scary slogans on the packs, no effect. Cigs are barely a thing in the states now, you are kind of a low caste pariah if you smoke, but I guess vaping and cannabis picked up the baton. I am an ex pack-a-day smoker myself, but quit about 10y ago. Don't crave cigs or the smell, but do crave nicotine.
    - pests 3mo ago
      I think it did. I recently started collecting some sealed Pokemon products for my collection so been going to lines and camp outs and meeting new people. Our new friend group is about 8 people sometimes more. Not a single person smokes cigs. In a line with 20/30+ other people there might only be a single person stepping aside to light up. Sometimes its hard to even find a lighter for other purposes.

Legend2440 3mo ago

Governments have spent considerable effort on it, but it's tough to ban something as popular as tobacco or alcohol. Voters tend to get what they want, and a sizeable fraction of voters smoke or drink.

pstuart 3mo ago
> Voters tend to get what they want I wish that was true. In the case of tobacco and alcohol, there's enough monied interests to ensure it would never be illegal. So this defines the classic simple argument about the issue: alcohol and tobacco are dangerous and other than a weird House episode, have no medical value, and yet society has decided that some dangerous drugs are ok, because the right people are making money from it. Propaganda has effectively sold the War on Drugs as "protecting people", but it's never been about that -- it's about enabling tools of oppression.
- Legend2440 3mo ago
  That's cynical nonsense and I don't believe a word of it. Prohibition was repealed by popular vote, not by bought-out politicians. And we're not 'oppressing' fent addicts by arresting them when they pass out on the sidewalk in front of my apartment. They are causing a problem for the rest of society that we now have to deal with. That's why we do the war on drugs.
  - pstuart 3mo ago
    Your certitude is not supported by your ignorance of history: Prohibition was that generation's war on drugs, and it's not pretty. The government went to obscene lengths to "discourage drinking": https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/government-poison-10000-americans/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/government-poison-10000-am... And the "voting" was the money'd class, not "the people": https://www.hagley.org/librarynews/prohibition-centennial https://www.hagley.org/librarynews/prohibition-centennial Let's not forget how well it funded organized crime, but not nearly to the extent that the current WoD has literally created the drug cartels south of the border. Moving on to your "observations" of failure. The fact that we literally have a fent crisis nationally shows that the war not only was an abject failure but literally created the fent crisis (cheaper and easier than heroin and easier to smuggle). As far as the oppression angle, there's plenty of documented history on this issue. For starters there's this: https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/race-mass-incarceration-and-disastrous-war-drugs https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/race... I've lost friends to drugs, my brother died of a heroin overdose and my mother died from complications of alcoholism and smoking. Your simple-minded dismissal of the problem is insulting to their memories and millions of others. Nobody should be doing fent recreationally, let alone passing out on the street. But if your answer to that problem is "Give the DEA billions of dollars more, and fill our prisons with those moral degnerates" then you are sadly mistaken.