4 ms·

Permanent standard time means less sunlight time after work. Permanent DST means kids walking to school in the dark. Changing the clock twice a year fixes tha

Permanent standard time means less sunlight time after work. Permanent DST means kids walking to school in the dark. Changing the clock twice a year fixes that and lets us avoid both, with the only cost being people complaining for a day afterwards. It's like ripping off the bandaid, instead of doing a slow agonizing pull that lasts months. And yes, I know some people take like 6 weeks to adjust and they will complain incessantly to stop it, but for the whole group, the least painful thing (I'd argue by far) is just moving the clock an hour.

hammock 4mo ago
I agree permanent standard time is a better solution. But maybe we change work to 8-4 from 9-5 and might be better that way anyway.
- alistairSH 4mo ago
  Does anybody actually work 9-5 (ie 7 hours assuming they take a break or two)?
  - BeetleB 4mo ago
    Most of us. (It's actually 8-5 with an hour's break).
    - alistairSH 4mo ago
      Which was my point - 9-5 isn't really a thing, it's usually 8-5 or 9-6 or worse. If we're going to adjust time zone, we should at least agree on when most people are/are-not at the office/school/farm fields/etc.
- ajsnigrutin 4mo ago
  > But maybe we change work to 8-4 from 9-5 and might be better that way anyway. Why not change the working hours of stores, and tv programming and other schedules too? In the end, you get the same thing as a clock change, but having to change the times of everything everywhere.
  - ghaff 4mo ago
    What's TV programming? :-) Stores already open across a spectrum of times.
  - hammock 3mo ago
    Yes which is why I said permanent standard would be better than permanent daylight
- antisthenes 4mo ago
  Fuck all the night owls, right?
Navarr 4mo ago
What if we just split the difference? America/New_York becomes UTC-04:30
- deleted 4mo ago
  [deleted]
alistairSH 4mo ago
Pretty sure there are studies that indicate the time shift is actually harmful - more car accidents, more heart attacks, all sorts of things. Really, the question is which system (standard, DST, or both) causes the least damage? Also worth noting we tried permanent DST a few decades ago and it was repealed within a year because people didn't like it. Approval in advance was north of 70% and in the aftermath below 40%, IIRC.
- kccoder 4mo ago
  One thing I'll never understand is why we shift the clocks at 2am on Sunday vs Saturday? Why not give people twice the number of days to adjust???? Seems like that would reduce some of the harms of the shift. Personally, I'd prefer permanent standard time.
willchis 4mo ago
You're not a software developer, are you ;)? I'm not working on any timezone-aware products right now but I feel for all my brothers and sisters in the trenches if this passes and has to be fixed everywhere!
- WarmWash 4mo ago
  Even worse than that, it will pass, people will realize it actually sucks, then they we will go back to the quick and nearly painless "rip off the bandaid" approach.
  - willchis 4mo ago
    Good for job security I guess!
  - Nicook 4mo ago
    No it wont. There's already one state in the union that has dipsensed with the silly time changes, Arizona. I've lived there for ~7 years while an adult, or about 20% of my life, now live in a time change state again. Having experienced both I would take the no time change every time. And I have yet to meet anyone who would (small sample size for sure, I'm sure someones done some polling).
    - blackfawn 4mo ago
      Arizona is on permanent standard time, which many seem to prefer over DST or permanent DST. This new law is trying to force permanent DST, which the US actually already signed into law back in 1974 and then repealed it within a year because no one liked it. Also, while permanent standard or DST may work in southern states, it becomes more problematic in northern states, particularly close to the edges of time zones. You could see sunrise as late as 9:30 am in some of these cases with permanent DST.
      - zackmorris 3mo ago
        Winter sunrise would be almost 9:20 am where I live in western Idaho: https://www.ktvb.com/article/news/local/idaho/locking-the-clock-idahoans-reacts-to-permanent-daylight-saving-time-proposal-in-congress/277-62b07e39-b759-4086-8d94-415d72765a9c https://www.ktvb.com/article/news/local/idaho/locking-the-cl... Our representative Mike Simpson voted for it. He has done some good things compared with our other congressional delegates (Mike Crapo, Jim Risch and Russ Fulcher) who tend to make fly by night committee votes against whatever is popular with the general public, so I don't want to knock him. But he does represent district 2, which is 200 miles to the east and would have a sunrise closer to 9:00 am: https://ballotpedia.org/Idaho%27s_2nd_Congressional_District https://ballotpedia.org/Idaho%27s_2nd_Congressional_District My feeling is that permanent DST is just not gonna fly here. So if it passes, our elected officials will take a lot of flack for it and have to run damage control.
throw0101d 4mo ago
> Permanent DST means kids walking to school in the dark. It means much more than that: > Later sunrises and sunsets, as seen with pDST, are associated with multiple long-term health outcomes including increases in stroke, heart attacks, diabetes, obesity, and cancer.[8–10] > The increase in obesity and other cardiovascular health problems show that even if DST were to encourage exercise in some individuals it is not enough to outweigh the effects of sleep and circadian disruption on food choices, metabolism, hunger hormones, and glucose control and other cardiovascular risk factors.[11,12] * https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10476036/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10476036/ The peer reviewed literature on the effects of changing time, pDST, and pST is quite extensive: * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48920869 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48920869
- GoblinSlayer 4mo ago
  And health problems will pump money into big pharma.
- WarmWash 4mo ago
  I'm going to be dubious of any study that has a call to action section and the author is the vice president of an advocacy group for their cause. It's a little bit of a "we investigated ourselves and found we were right about everything".
  - throw0101d 4mo ago
    > I'm going to be dubious of any study that has a call to action section and the author is the vice president of an advocacy group for their cause. How about the American Medical Association? * https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/ama-press-releases/ama-calls-permanent-standard-time https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/ama-press-releases/ama... Or American Society for Metabolic and Bariatric Surgery, American Thoracic Society, and American College of Chest Physicians concurring? * https://www.labmanager.com/new-position-statement-supports-permanent-standard-time-31215 https://www.labmanager.com/new-position-statement-supports-p... Chronobiologists? * https://www.chronobiocanada.com/official-statements https://www.chronobiocanada.com/official-statements * https://www.chronobiology.ch/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/JBR-DST.pdf https://www.chronobiology.ch/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/JBR-... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronobiology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronobiology
undersuit 4mo ago
You know what maybe all schools in the US shouldn't start at 7:30-8:15. Similar idea with businesses. Maybe people living in northern latitudes can have a different schedule than than south.
Spartan-S63 4mo ago
Better solution: Adopt summer and winter hours to follow the sun rather than arbitrarily changing the clocks and interrupting sleep schedule and circadian rhythms.
BeetleB 4mo ago
> with the only cost being people complaining for a day afterwards. I complain all summer long.
antisthenes 4mo ago
> with the only cost being people complaining for a day afterwards Tell me you never had issues with sleep without telling me you never had issues with sleep.

hammock 4mo ago

I agree permanent standard time is a better solution. But maybe we change work to 8-4 from 9-5 and might be better that way anyway.

alistairSH 4mo ago
Does anybody actually work 9-5 (ie 7 hours assuming they take a break or two)?
- BeetleB 4mo ago
  Most of us. (It's actually 8-5 with an hour's break).
  - alistairSH 4mo ago
    Which was my point - 9-5 isn't really a thing, it's usually 8-5 or 9-6 or worse. If we're going to adjust time zone, we should at least agree on when most people are/are-not at the office/school/farm fields/etc.
ajsnigrutin 4mo ago
> But maybe we change work to 8-4 from 9-5 and might be better that way anyway. Why not change the working hours of stores, and tv programming and other schedules too? In the end, you get the same thing as a clock change, but having to change the times of everything everywhere.
- ghaff 4mo ago
  What's TV programming? :-) Stores already open across a spectrum of times.
- hammock 3mo ago
  Yes which is why I said permanent standard would be better than permanent daylight
antisthenes 4mo ago
Fuck all the night owls, right?

Navarr 4mo ago

What if we just split the difference? America/New_York becomes UTC-04:30

deleted 4mo ago
[deleted]

alistairSH 4mo ago

Pretty sure there are studies that indicate the time shift is actually harmful - more car accidents, more heart attacks, all sorts of things. Really, the question is which system (standard, DST, or both) causes the least damage? Also worth noting we tried permanent DST a few decades ago and it was repealed within a year because people didn't like it. Approval in advance was north of 70% and in the aftermath below 40%, IIRC.

kccoder 4mo ago
One thing I'll never understand is why we shift the clocks at 2am on Sunday vs Saturday? Why not give people twice the number of days to adjust???? Seems like that would reduce some of the harms of the shift. Personally, I'd prefer permanent standard time.

willchis 4mo ago

You're not a software developer, are you ;)? I'm not working on any timezone-aware products right now but I feel for all my brothers and sisters in the trenches if this passes and has to be fixed everywhere!

WarmWash 4mo ago
Even worse than that, it will pass, people will realize it actually sucks, then they we will go back to the quick and nearly painless "rip off the bandaid" approach.
- willchis 4mo ago
  Good for job security I guess!
- Nicook 4mo ago
  No it wont. There's already one state in the union that has dipsensed with the silly time changes, Arizona. I've lived there for ~7 years while an adult, or about 20% of my life, now live in a time change state again. Having experienced both I would take the no time change every time. And I have yet to meet anyone who would (small sample size for sure, I'm sure someones done some polling).
  - blackfawn 4mo ago
    Arizona is on permanent standard time, which many seem to prefer over DST or permanent DST. This new law is trying to force permanent DST, which the US actually already signed into law back in 1974 and then repealed it within a year because no one liked it. Also, while permanent standard or DST may work in southern states, it becomes more problematic in northern states, particularly close to the edges of time zones. You could see sunrise as late as 9:30 am in some of these cases with permanent DST.
    - zackmorris 3mo ago
      Winter sunrise would be almost 9:20 am where I live in western Idaho: https://www.ktvb.com/article/news/local/idaho/locking-the-clock-idahoans-reacts-to-permanent-daylight-saving-time-proposal-in-congress/277-62b07e39-b759-4086-8d94-415d72765a9c https://www.ktvb.com/article/news/local/idaho/locking-the-cl... Our representative Mike Simpson voted for it. He has done some good things compared with our other congressional delegates (Mike Crapo, Jim Risch and Russ Fulcher) who tend to make fly by night committee votes against whatever is popular with the general public, so I don't want to knock him. But he does represent district 2, which is 200 miles to the east and would have a sunrise closer to 9:00 am: https://ballotpedia.org/Idaho%27s_2nd_Congressional_District https://ballotpedia.org/Idaho%27s_2nd_Congressional_District My feeling is that permanent DST is just not gonna fly here. So if it passes, our elected officials will take a lot of flack for it and have to run damage control.

throw0101d 4mo ago

> Permanent DST means kids walking to school in the dark. It means much more than that: > Later sunrises and sunsets, as seen with pDST, are associated with multiple long-term health outcomes including increases in stroke, heart attacks, diabetes, obesity, and cancer.[8–10] > The increase in obesity and other cardiovascular health problems show that even if DST were to encourage exercise in some individuals it is not enough to outweigh the effects of sleep and circadian disruption on food choices, metabolism, hunger hormones, and glucose control and other cardiovascular risk factors.[11,12] * https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10476036/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10476036/ The peer reviewed literature on the effects of changing time, pDST, and pST is quite extensive: * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48920869 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48920869

GoblinSlayer 4mo ago
And health problems will pump money into big pharma.
WarmWash 4mo ago
I'm going to be dubious of any study that has a call to action section and the author is the vice president of an advocacy group for their cause. It's a little bit of a "we investigated ourselves and found we were right about everything".
- throw0101d 4mo ago
  > I'm going to be dubious of any study that has a call to action section and the author is the vice president of an advocacy group for their cause. How about the American Medical Association? * https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/ama-press-releases/ama-calls-permanent-standard-time https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/ama-press-releases/ama... Or American Society for Metabolic and Bariatric Surgery, American Thoracic Society, and American College of Chest Physicians concurring? * https://www.labmanager.com/new-position-statement-supports-permanent-standard-time-31215 https://www.labmanager.com/new-position-statement-supports-p... Chronobiologists? * https://www.chronobiocanada.com/official-statements https://www.chronobiocanada.com/official-statements * https://www.chronobiology.ch/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/JBR-DST.pdf https://www.chronobiology.ch/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/JBR-... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronobiology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronobiology

undersuit 4mo ago

You know what maybe all schools in the US shouldn't start at 7:30-8:15. Similar idea with businesses. Maybe people living in northern latitudes can have a different schedule than than south.

Spartan-S63 4mo ago

Better solution: Adopt summer and winter hours to follow the sun rather than arbitrarily changing the clocks and interrupting sleep schedule and circadian rhythms.

BeetleB 4mo ago

> with the only cost being people complaining for a day afterwards. I complain all summer long.

antisthenes 4mo ago

> with the only cost being people complaining for a day afterwards Tell me you never had issues with sleep without telling me you never had issues with sleep.