4 ms·

Am I the only person who thinks its odd that my government (US) thinks its can tell me what time to get up and go to bed? Before timezones, "noon" was the poin

by gwbas1c 3mo ago

Am I the only person who thinks its odd that my government (US) thinks its can tell me what time to get up and go to bed? Before timezones, "noon" was the point where the sun was the highest in the sky. It seems we should focus on having our timezones be more in line with what "noon" is supposed to be: IE, major population centers should have "noon" close to true noon, with a little more flexibility for rural areas so they can stay on the same time as their closest major population center.

whycome 3mo ago
Or have a universal clock. But have regional start times. 9-5 makes no sense.
- IAmBroom 3mo ago
  9-5 is a red herring for this topic - but why does it make no sense to you?
  - eesmith 3mo ago
    If everyone follows the same clock, like, now is 12:30pm, across the entire world, then while everyone could also work 9-5, we know that most people like to be awake during daylight and asleep at night, so the local working hours might be 2-10. We can get an idea of the issues in China, which has a single national timezone instead of 4 or 5 geographical time zones. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_in_China > Beijing Time users in Xinjiang usually schedule their daily activities two hours later than those who live in eastern China. As such, stores and offices in Xinjiang are commonly open from 10:00 to 19:00 Beijing Time, which equals 08:00 to 17:00 in Ürümqi Time.[17] This is known as the work/rest time in Xinjiang. Thus, "9-5" would get a name like "work time", or the existing name of "day shift" would have increased popularity.
  - whycome 3mo ago
    Because we set it up so that our shared infrastructure goes under load at the same time instead of being better distributed. With a universal clock, there may be less pressure to start at shared time. Staggered starts.
- gwbas1c 3mo ago
  That's called UTC. Most datetimes are stored that way and converted to local time in the UI. (To prove it, open finder or explorer and look at a file's modified time. Then change your time zone. You might need to refresh the window. You can even select UTC as your computer's time zone. It's how some cloud servers operate.)
quentindanjou 3mo ago
I also really like having 12pm being the moment the sun is at the highest point. But I think the whole point of that change is to simplify and this would go the other way.
justinlink 3mo ago
that became an issue with the introduction of trains and their schedule. how do you think this would work today with our interconnected world? we absolutely need standardized times or everything falls apart.
- gwbas1c 3mo ago
  Please re-read my comment
jcranmer 3mo ago
Okay, so you travel from, say, Washington DC to NYC and then you have to set your clock back by... I think it's like 13 minutes? Which is why railroads started instituting time zones in the late 19th century: because it turns out having to recalibrate your watch every hour or so is a recipe for creating train crashes. Railroad time didn't become standard time until the early 20th century, in large part because a lot of the smaller cities were pretty irate at having to adjust their clocks. (It also doesn't help that coincidentally, places like Chicago and New York City are very near the center meridian of their time zone).
- dave78 3mo ago
  > places like Chicago and New York City are very near the center meridian of their time zone Chicago is very close to the eastern edge of the Central time zone, though I know that was not true throughout history.
  - jcranmer 3mo ago
    If you look at the "natural" disposition of the time zones, Chicago is very near the appropriate longitude (90 W) for the median of the time zone. The border between Eastern and Central time zone should be about halfway through Ohio; instead, the Eastern time zone is skewed westward, since Indiana, Ohio, and Michigan wanted to be in the same time zone as NYC.
- gwbas1c 3mo ago
  No, you completely misinterpreted me. Just keep true noon within ~30 minutes of noon in population centers, and allow rural areas ~45 minutes. DC and NYC would be in the same time zone. Right now DC's true noon is more than an hour off. That's too much. (Where I live, my true noon is always ~30 minutes off, both in standard and dst, so I can't complain.)
IAmBroom 3mo ago
Ideal and impractical. Even with modern wifi. Why not have your own timezone based on where you are standing right now? Oh, right, because that's the opposite of universal (or at least worldwide). One-hour shifts are manageable. One-minute shifts between population centers are not. Your meeting would start at precisely 8:03:38, your time. The business you are calling would close its doors 13 minutes before 5 pm.
- gwbas1c 3mo ago
  Please re-read my comment
mikey_p 3mo ago
This is a great question, and theres alot of history there, this is how time used to work until travel and communication speeds necessitating coordination over larger areas required it. The biggest driver in North America? Railroads. Great documentary on the history of human relationship with time is available here: https://www.pbs.org/video/pbs-indies-time-1/ https://www.pbs.org/video/pbs-indies-time-1/
Group_B 3mo ago
Technically no. Work and School dictate when we get up and go to bed. It's all relative. We could create a timezone where 12:00PM is in the morning. We are just used to this idea that morning, afternoon, evening, and night need to correspond to specific time values. For example, China uses just one timezone. So local regions just adapt to what logically makes sense. In a perfect world, local regions would adapt to the amount of daylight we have for each season, like it was before timekeeping and timezones. So school and work would shift when they start based off the rising of the sun. This isn't practical though for multiple reasons. It would cause chaos and confusion for work shifts, scheduling etc.
eesmith 3mo ago
You can get up or go to bed whenever you wish. You can say today's date is 27 Messidor Year CCXXXIV if you wish. The problem is when you want to coordinate events between people following different time conventions. Timezones as we know it started off as a railroad company invention. Does the London/Birmingham train follow London time or Birmingham time? Does the stop in Rugby use Rugby time? DST in the US used to be a regional choice until 1966. Coordination became an issue. "The lack of standardization led to a patchwork where some areas observed DST while adjacent areas did not, and it was not unheard of to have to reset a clock several times during a short trip (e.g., bus drivers operating on West Virginia Route 2 between Moundsville, West Virginia, and Steubenville, Ohio, had to reset their watches seven times over 35 miles)." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_time_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_time_in_the_United_... > with a little more flexibility for rural areas so they can stay on the same time as their closest major population center. We can do that already. I remember when most of Indiana didn't follow DST. Businesses in Danville, Illinois, near the border followed Indiana time by changing the listed hours of operation during summer. Speaking of Indiana, 'Attitudes began to change in the 1990s, as Indiana's time zone situation was seen as impeding the state's economic growth. Interstate travel and commerce were difficult as people wondered, "what time is it in Indiana?"' - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_in_Indiana https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_in_Indiana Having 12:00 noon be when the sun is highest makes these issues reappear.
- gwbas1c 3mo ago
  No $#1t, Please re-read my comment
  - eesmith 3mo ago
    I've re-read it 5 times. I do not see what I am supposed to be seeing. > Am I the only person who thinks its odd No. Many people have complained. In the TV show "The Bob Newhart Show" we find that Bob Hartley thinks that talking about the then-recent timezone standardization to be a safe topic with his father-in-law, but the latter finds it very odd and irritating. > that my government (US) Time standardization started without governments. Would you rather follow local sun time and railroad time and radio/TV station time, all different? Which time do you follow if you want to call your aunt 150 miles west of you? > that my government (US) thinks its can tell me what time How are they preventing you from keeping your own time? How are they preventing people from following the Jewish calendar? OTOH, if you have jury duty at 9am next Monday, you better be there on government time. But note that when I last served on duty, the county was huge, and some people took an hour to drive in. Their home could well be many minutes off court house time. So how do they determine the right time to be there? > time to get up and go to bed? The government has never told me what time to get up or go to sleep. I was never in the military or other organization where the government had that much power over me. > Before timezones, "noon" was the point where the sun was the highest in the sky. Which ended up being a problem once fast long distance travel became commonplace. So how do you solve that problem? > It seems we should Yes, you've expressed an opinion. I responded by pointing out the known consequences should everyone followed it, based on historical practices. > with a little more flexibility for rural areas so they can stay on the same time as their closest major population center. I also pointed out how that can happen in a timezone system, by changing ones listed hours of work/school/etc. Iceland is on UTC+00:00 year-round (Greenwich Mean Time), to stay in synch with much of western Europe, even though that's at least an hour behind local solar time. So plenty of people disagree with your opinion, and changing their opinion would be hard.

by gwbas1c 3mo ago

whycome 3mo ago

Or have a universal clock. But have regional start times. 9-5 makes no sense.

IAmBroom 3mo ago
9-5 is a red herring for this topic - but why does it make no sense to you?
- eesmith 3mo ago
  If everyone follows the same clock, like, now is 12:30pm, across the entire world, then while everyone could also work 9-5, we know that most people like to be awake during daylight and asleep at night, so the local working hours might be 2-10. We can get an idea of the issues in China, which has a single national timezone instead of 4 or 5 geographical time zones. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_in_China > Beijing Time users in Xinjiang usually schedule their daily activities two hours later than those who live in eastern China. As such, stores and offices in Xinjiang are commonly open from 10:00 to 19:00 Beijing Time, which equals 08:00 to 17:00 in Ürümqi Time.[17] This is known as the work/rest time in Xinjiang. Thus, "9-5" would get a name like "work time", or the existing name of "day shift" would have increased popularity.
- whycome 3mo ago
  Because we set it up so that our shared infrastructure goes under load at the same time instead of being better distributed. With a universal clock, there may be less pressure to start at shared time. Staggered starts.
gwbas1c 3mo ago
That's called UTC. Most datetimes are stored that way and converted to local time in the UI. (To prove it, open finder or explorer and look at a file's modified time. Then change your time zone. You might need to refresh the window. You can even select UTC as your computer's time zone. It's how some cloud servers operate.)

quentindanjou 3mo ago

I also really like having 12pm being the moment the sun is at the highest point. But I think the whole point of that change is to simplify and this would go the other way.

justinlink 3mo ago

that became an issue with the introduction of trains and their schedule. how do you think this would work today with our interconnected world? we absolutely need standardized times or everything falls apart.

gwbas1c 3mo ago
Please re-read my comment

jcranmer 3mo ago

Okay, so you travel from, say, Washington DC to NYC and then you have to set your clock back by... I think it's like 13 minutes? Which is why railroads started instituting time zones in the late 19th century: because it turns out having to recalibrate your watch every hour or so is a recipe for creating train crashes. Railroad time didn't become standard time until the early 20th century, in large part because a lot of the smaller cities were pretty irate at having to adjust their clocks. (It also doesn't help that coincidentally, places like Chicago and New York City are very near the center meridian of their time zone).

dave78 3mo ago
> places like Chicago and New York City are very near the center meridian of their time zone Chicago is very close to the eastern edge of the Central time zone, though I know that was not true throughout history.
- jcranmer 3mo ago
  If you look at the "natural" disposition of the time zones, Chicago is very near the appropriate longitude (90 W) for the median of the time zone. The border between Eastern and Central time zone should be about halfway through Ohio; instead, the Eastern time zone is skewed westward, since Indiana, Ohio, and Michigan wanted to be in the same time zone as NYC.
gwbas1c 3mo ago
No, you completely misinterpreted me. Just keep true noon within ~30 minutes of noon in population centers, and allow rural areas ~45 minutes. DC and NYC would be in the same time zone. Right now DC's true noon is more than an hour off. That's too much. (Where I live, my true noon is always ~30 minutes off, both in standard and dst, so I can't complain.)

IAmBroom 3mo ago

Ideal and impractical. Even with modern wifi. Why not have your own timezone based on where you are standing right now? Oh, right, because that's the opposite of universal (or at least worldwide). One-hour shifts are manageable. One-minute shifts between population centers are not. Your meeting would start at precisely 8:03:38, your time. The business you are calling would close its doors 13 minutes before 5 pm.

gwbas1c 3mo ago
Please re-read my comment

mikey_p 3mo ago

This is a great question, and theres alot of history there, this is how time used to work until travel and communication speeds necessitating coordination over larger areas required it. The biggest driver in North America? Railroads. Great documentary on the history of human relationship with time is available here: https://www.pbs.org/video/pbs-indies-time-1/ https://www.pbs.org/video/pbs-indies-time-1/

Group_B 3mo ago

Technically no. Work and School dictate when we get up and go to bed. It's all relative. We could create a timezone where 12:00PM is in the morning. We are just used to this idea that morning, afternoon, evening, and night need to correspond to specific time values. For example, China uses just one timezone. So local regions just adapt to what logically makes sense. In a perfect world, local regions would adapt to the amount of daylight we have for each season, like it was before timekeeping and timezones. So school and work would shift when they start based off the rising of the sun. This isn't practical though for multiple reasons. It would cause chaos and confusion for work shifts, scheduling etc.

eesmith 3mo ago

You can get up or go to bed whenever you wish. You can say today's date is 27 Messidor Year CCXXXIV if you wish. The problem is when you want to coordinate events between people following different time conventions. Timezones as we know it started off as a railroad company invention. Does the London/Birmingham train follow London time or Birmingham time? Does the stop in Rugby use Rugby time? DST in the US used to be a regional choice until 1966. Coordination became an issue. "The lack of standardization led to a patchwork where some areas observed DST while adjacent areas did not, and it was not unheard of to have to reset a clock several times during a short trip (e.g., bus drivers operating on West Virginia Route 2 between Moundsville, West Virginia, and Steubenville, Ohio, had to reset their watches seven times over 35 miles)." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_time_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_time_in_the_United_... > with a little more flexibility for rural areas so they can stay on the same time as their closest major population center. We can do that already. I remember when most of Indiana didn't follow DST. Businesses in Danville, Illinois, near the border followed Indiana time by changing the listed hours of operation during summer. Speaking of Indiana, 'Attitudes began to change in the 1990s, as Indiana's time zone situation was seen as impeding the state's economic growth. Interstate travel and commerce were difficult as people wondered, "what time is it in Indiana?"' - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_in_Indiana https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_in_Indiana Having 12:00 noon be when the sun is highest makes these issues reappear.

gwbas1c 3mo ago
No $#1t, Please re-read my comment
- eesmith 3mo ago
  I've re-read it 5 times. I do not see what I am supposed to be seeing. > Am I the only person who thinks its odd No. Many people have complained. In the TV show "The Bob Newhart Show" we find that Bob Hartley thinks that talking about the then-recent timezone standardization to be a safe topic with his father-in-law, but the latter finds it very odd and irritating. > that my government (US) Time standardization started without governments. Would you rather follow local sun time and railroad time and radio/TV station time, all different? Which time do you follow if you want to call your aunt 150 miles west of you? > that my government (US) thinks its can tell me what time How are they preventing you from keeping your own time? How are they preventing people from following the Jewish calendar? OTOH, if you have jury duty at 9am next Monday, you better be there on government time. But note that when I last served on duty, the county was huge, and some people took an hour to drive in. Their home could well be many minutes off court house time. So how do they determine the right time to be there? > time to get up and go to bed? The government has never told me what time to get up or go to sleep. I was never in the military or other organization where the government had that much power over me. > Before timezones, "noon" was the point where the sun was the highest in the sky. Which ended up being a problem once fast long distance travel became commonplace. So how do you solve that problem? > It seems we should Yes, you've expressed an opinion. I responded by pointing out the known consequences should everyone followed it, based on historical practices. > with a little more flexibility for rural areas so they can stay on the same time as their closest major population center. I also pointed out how that can happen in a timezone system, by changing ones listed hours of work/school/etc. Iceland is on UTC+00:00 year-round (Greenwich Mean Time), to stay in synch with much of western Europe, even though that's at least an hour behind local solar time. So plenty of people disagree with your opinion, and changing their opinion would be hard.