10 ms·

US House of Representatives takes step to make daylight saving time permanent

47 points by throw0101d 3mo ago

throw0101d 3mo ago
Perhaps worth noting that most medical and sleep/circadian research folks want permanent standard time: * https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/press-releases/ama-calls-permanent-standard-time https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/press-releases/ama-cal... * https://www.labmanager.com/new-position-statement-supports-permanent-standard-time-31215 https://www.labmanager.com/new-position-statement-supports-p... * http://www.chronobiology.ch/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/JBR-DST.pdf http://www.chronobiology.ch/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/JBR-D... * https://www.chronobiology.com/impact-daylight-saving-time-circadian-clock/ https://www.chronobiology.com/impact-daylight-saving-time-ci... * https://esrs.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/To_the_EU_Commission_on_DST.pdf https://esrs.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/To_the_EU_Commiss... * https://www.chronobiocanada.com/official-statements https://www.chronobiocanada.com/official-statements * https://srbr.org/advocacy/daylight-saving-time-presskit/ https://srbr.org/advocacy/daylight-saving-time-presskit/ * https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10476036/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10476036/ * https://old.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/dq2nv3/ https://old.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/dq2nv3/ > The authors take the position that, based on comparisons of large populations living in DST or ST or on western versus eastern edges of time zones, the advantages of permanent ST outweigh switching to DST annually or permanently. Four peer reviewers provided expert critiques of the initial submission, and the SRBR Executive Board approved the revised manuscript as a Position Paper to help educate the public in their evaluation of current legislative actions to end DST. […] The choice of DST is political and therefore can be changed. If we want to improve human health, we should not fight against our body clock, and therefore, we should abandon DST and return to Standard Time (which is when the sun clock time most closely matches the social clock time) throughout the year. This solution would fix both the acute and the chronic problems of DST. We therefore strongly support removing DST changes or removing permanent DST and having governing organizations choose permanent Standard Time for the health and safety of their citizens. * https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0748730419854197 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/07487304198541... Recent US public opinion: > As the March 9 [2025] switch to daylight saving time (DST) approaches in the U.S., the majority of Americans (54%) say they are ready to do away with the practice. By contrast, 40% of U.S. adults say they are in favor of daylight saving time, while 6% are uncertain. […] > The plurality of Americans, 48%, say they would prefer to have standard time the whole year, including summer. Half as many, 24%, prefer having daylight saving time in place the whole year, including winter. The smallest percentage, 19%, prefer the status quo of switching between the two each year. * https://news.gallup.com/poll/657584/half-daylight-saving-time-sunsetted.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/657584/half-daylight-saving-tim...
- JMKH42 3mo ago
  In the medium term wouldn't it likely not matter? Schedules will adjust to whatever permanent time system is adopted.
  - macintux 3mo ago
    I doubt it. People seem to have a strong aversion to sleeping before sunset.
    - garciansmith 3mo ago
      How would permanent DST matter in that regard? Are people going to bed at like 4 pm in the winter and now upset they'd have to wait until 5? DST is already used in the summer (and 3/4 of the year).
      - macintux 3mo ago
        You're right, I should have referred to sunrise instead. For me, permanent DST would mean the sun doesn't come up until 9am in late December.
      - BeetleB 3mo ago
        It's about summer. And yes, some people hate it that there is still light out at 9:30pm.
  - PunchyHamster 3mo ago
    It does depending what you do. For example, I'd rather have more sunlight available after my work day ends. But someone say working physical, outdoor job might prefer to have more sunlight early on. Or vice versa, have less of their work day in the afternoon heat peak
- yearolinuxdsktp 3mo ago
  I think that the gallup poll is flawed because it does not explain what daylight saving versus standard time is. I just spoke to an educated grad student, who thought that we were in standard time right now. Because the sun is out later during daylight saving time, the name is somewhat counter-intuitive. Also, because it’s on for most of the year, DST feels “standard.”
damnesian 3mo ago
Studies have been conducted about the safety of sticking to one time. The ones who are the most vulnerable are kids waiting for buses in the dark. We can't move to dynamic school times because we are still working the same paradigm as the industrial revolution- same schedule every day, year in year out. And society is simply too divided and fractured, and the motives too hidden and craven, to decide to move en masse to a dynamic schedule.
- BeetleB 3mo ago
  Studies also show that permanent standard time is better than permanent daylight time. But for some reason, the US wants to go against the rest of the world on this.
  - ghaff 3mo ago
    You are aware that at least much of Europe uses a similar system to what the US uses today?
    - BeetleB 3mo ago
      Europe is less than 8% of the world's population. The vast majority of the world uses standard time. It works. No one there pines for permanent daylight time. Europe is wrong 50% of the time. The US[1] will be wrong 100% of the time. It can mostly get away with this because it spans the continent. But still, you're going to deal with the stupidity that crossing the Mexican border you will always have to correct your watch. [1] And Alberta + BC. But really - all of Canada is just a rounding error anyway!
      - ghaff 3mo ago
        Meanwhile, China has one timezone so I sort of doubt that DST registers given that.
      - esoterica 3mo ago
        > The vast majority of the world uses standard time. It works. No one there pines for permanent daylight time. Timezones are political, there are many cities and countries that are an hour or more west of the timezone implied by their longitude, which is equivalent to permanent daylight time, even if they don't call it permanent daylight time.
BeetleB 3mo ago
> and put the US under time currently observed between March and November - known as permanent standard time. Was that a typo?
gwbas1c 3mo ago
Am I the only person who thinks its odd that my government (US) thinks its can tell me what time to get up and go to bed? Before timezones, "noon" was the point where the sun was the highest in the sky. It seems we should focus on having our timezones be more in line with what "noon" is supposed to be: IE, major population centers should have "noon" close to true noon, with a little more flexibility for rural areas so they can stay on the same time as their closest major population center.
- whycome 3mo ago
  Or have a universal clock. But have regional start times. 9-5 makes no sense.
  - IAmBroom 3mo ago
    9-5 is a red herring for this topic - but why does it make no sense to you?
    - eesmith 3mo ago
      If everyone follows the same clock, like, now is 12:30pm, across the entire world, then while everyone could also work 9-5, we know that most people like to be awake during daylight and asleep at night, so the local working hours might be 2-10. We can get an idea of the issues in China, which has a single national timezone instead of 4 or 5 geographical time zones. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_in_China > Beijing Time users in Xinjiang usually schedule their daily activities two hours later than those who live in eastern China. As such, stores and offices in Xinjiang are commonly open from 10:00 to 19:00 Beijing Time, which equals 08:00 to 17:00 in Ürümqi Time.[17] This is known as the work/rest time in Xinjiang. Thus, "9-5" would get a name like "work time", or the existing name of "day shift" would have increased popularity.
    - whycome 3mo ago
      Because we set it up so that our shared infrastructure goes under load at the same time instead of being better distributed. With a universal clock, there may be less pressure to start at shared time. Staggered starts.
Sindisil 3mo ago
As usual, when Congress finally moves to address an issue, they manage to do it in the stupidest possible way. Permanent Standard Time is the better choice in nearly every way.
- Ar-Curunir 3mo ago
  Why so? Having more time in the evening after work is way better. Getting out of work and it already being dark is depressing.
  - Sindisil 3mo ago
    And many people find it depressing getting going in the morning when it's still dark. Plus, in Winter most people at best get off work around dusk anyway. In addition, most studies indicate health benefits for standard time relative to both switching and permanent DST. We tried permanent DST back in the 70s, and it sucked. We switched back. If we're going to make a change, it should be to standard time.
bsimpson 3mo ago
Glad to see progress made on this. In my 20s, I strongly considered taking some time off to create and drive petitions across the Pacific states to put us all on permanent PDT (matching Arizona). In my research, I saw it would take an act of Congress to make that happen, so I stood down.
- BeetleB 3mo ago
  > to put us all on permanent PDT (matching Arizona). Arizona is (wisely) on permanent standard time.
  - bsimpson 3mo ago
    Yes, but PDT = MST
7777777phil 3mo ago
Wasn’t this already tried at least once and then reverted some 2 years later?
- Brybry 3mo ago
  Yeah but now everyone has cell phones and LED street lights that sometimes feel brighter than the sun. It's worth trying again, it's not like it can't be reverted again.
- throw0101d 3mo ago
  > Wasn’t this already tried at least once and then reverted some 2 years later? In the US in the 1970s, but more recently in Russia as well: * https://globalnews.ca/news/1469007/russia-abolishes-daylight-saving-time/ https://globalnews.ca/news/1469007/russia-abolishes-daylight... * https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/01/russia-state-duma-daylight-saving-time-summer https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/01/russia-state-d...
  - Brybry 3mo ago
    Note that, as your sources state, Russia tried permanent DST and changed to permanent standard time instead. They didn't revert back to a system of switching between DST and ST annually.
jmuguy 3mo ago
Maybe they'll actually do it this time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanent_time_observation_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanent_time_observation_in_...
slackfan 3mo ago
This is fine, provided we add the extra necessary time zone.
Georgelemental 3mo ago
Boo, hiss. Permanent Standard Time is better in every way https://savestandardtime.com/ https://savestandardtime.com/
- tantalor 3mo ago
  These arguments aren't very convincing.
- hammock 3mo ago
  Agree but now we could change 9-5 workday to 8-4 and that is better also
- GoblinSlayer 3mo ago
  It's just names, might as well call it humpty dumpty time. Local time is defined by offset from UTC.
- SAI_Peregrinus 3mo ago
  Boo! Permanent Dawn time is better. Every day at 03:00, set the time when the upper limb of the sun will cross the sea-level horizon at the equator to 06:30. That means kids never have to wait for the bus in the morning in the dark, except at high latitudes in winter but who cares about those kids right? /s
  - 7e 3mo ago
    That is actually better in every way! Assuming the time zones are 2D so the dawn is local. It would probably cut down on cancer rates, too, by harmonizing circadian rhythms.
    - BobaFloutist 3mo ago
      I've been a fan of continuous time change for a while now. In theory, to get a similar result to the hour change twice a year, you only need ~20 seconds of change every day, though I think you could do even better if you took location into account. I wonder how hard it would be to program an alarm to automatically offset a default wakeup time based on location and season to always occur after dawn while minimizing daily delta (and obviously allowing for an override "wake up at h:mm local time tomorrow, my work meeting doesn't care about my snowflake sleep program." Seems relatively achievable, but maybe harder to integrate into a normal phone UX.
ksec 3mo ago
I wonder if UK will follow as well.
abecedarius 3mo ago
[dead]
WarmWash 3mo ago
Permanent standard time means less sunlight time after work. Permanent DST means kids walking to school in the dark. Changing the clock twice a year fixes that and lets us avoid both, with the only cost being people complaining for a day afterwards. It's like ripping off the bandaid, instead of doing a slow agonizing pull that lasts months. And yes, I know some people take like 6 weeks to adjust and they will complain incessantly to stop it, but for the whole group, the least painful thing (I'd argue by far) is just moving the clock an hour.
- hammock 3mo ago
  I agree permanent standard time is a better solution. But maybe we change work to 8-4 from 9-5 and might be better that way anyway.
  - alistairSH 3mo ago
    Does anybody actually work 9-5 (ie 7 hours assuming they take a break or two)?
    - BeetleB 3mo ago
      Most of us. (It's actually 8-5 with an hour's break).
      - alistairSH 3mo ago
        Which was my point - 9-5 isn't really a thing, it's usually 8-5 or 9-6 or worse. If we're going to adjust time zone, we should at least agree on when most people are/are-not at the office/school/farm fields/etc.
  - ajsnigrutin 3mo ago
    > But maybe we change work to 8-4 from 9-5 and might be better that way anyway. Why not change the working hours of stores, and tv programming and other schedules too? In the end, you get the same thing as a clock change, but having to change the times of everything everywhere.
johnohara 3mo ago
In the upper midwest, daylight savings time generally gives way to tractor-mounted LED time as contracted harvesting companies switch into high production to beat the late-fall rain.
flying4781 3mo ago
The engineer in me wants standard time, but the human in me wants daylight time.
- ghaff 3mo ago
  Essentially you're just redefining the standard UTC offset for US timezones.
jcranmer 3mo ago
Permanent DST sounds good to a lot of people, until they actually experience it. The US went on permanent DST in the 1970s and support plummeted after the first winter in DST (which is why we're not on it anymore). Of course, since it was 50 years ago, that means most people alive in the US don't remember the days of permanent DST. The problem, I think, is that what a lot of people want is they want the sun to set quite late, like it does in summer time. But DST isn't going to give you those long summer afternoons in winter, because the sun just isn't up long enough; and the trade-off you'd make for maybe coming off work into the start of dusk is that dawn would start after you start working, which turns out to be pretty bad for your circadian rhythm.
- throw0101d 3mo ago
  > The US went on permanent DST in the 1970s and support plummeted after the first winter in DST (which is why we're not on it anymore). More recently Russia tried pDST and went away from it: * https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/01/russia-state-duma-daylight-saving-time-summer https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/01/russia-state-d... A more southern-lattitude country, Turkey, has stuck with pDST, though some folks don't/didn't like it because of enrichment allegations: * https://www.turkishminute.com/2024/10/31/permanent-daylight-saving-time-in-turkey-criticized-for-benefitin-compn-rathr-thn-people/ https://www.turkishminute.com/2024/10/31/permanent-daylight-...
- apple4ever 2mo ago
  As you said, that was 50 years ago. Technology and culture has changed since then. I think Permanent DST is the best, because more sun in the afternoon in the winter is better, but in either case, let's just stop switching.
water-data-dude 3mo ago
The only time the Sunshine Protection Act has passed the senate was when gosh danged Tom Cotton wasn't there[0]. I swear, he's in the pocket of Big Time[1]. [0]https://www.mediaite.com/politics/that-daylight-saving-time-bill-passed-because-a-bunch-of-senators-just-werent-paying-attention/ https://www.mediaite.com/politics/that-daylight-saving-time-... [1]https://www.cotton.senate.gov/news/speeches/floor-speech-on-opposing-the-sunshine-protection-act https://www.cotton.senate.gov/news/speeches/floor-speech-on-...
Auracle 3mo ago
For night owls and teenagers, who already have a hard time in society, Daylight Saving Time makes things far worse. It’s been tried and failed, already, primarily due to school/kids issues. The sun will rise really, really late in the dead of winter in some places. Sleep experts are all pretty much in agreement that permanent Standard Time is better. I’d be all for permanent Standard Time but there’s no way that’ll happen with the old people in charge of our government. Most of them probably wake up at 4am already.
- rconti 3mo ago
  As a night owl who sleeps late, I'm stoked to not waste morning daylight while I'm sleeping, and have more time in the evening to go out and do shit before it gets dark.
  - deleted 3mo ago
    [deleted]
  - throw0101d 3mo ago
    I don't really care how time is reckoned so long as there is some agreement about it, but I object to being told that I am saving daylight when my reason tells me that I am doing nothing of the kind. I even object to the implication that I am wasting something valuable if I stay in bed after the sun has risen. As an admirer of moonlight I resent the bossy insistence of those who want to reduce my time for enjoying it. At the back of the Daylight Saving scheme I detect the bony, blue-fingered hand of Puritanism, eager to push people into bed earlier, and get them up earlier, to make them healthy, wealthy and wise in spite of themselves. -- Robertson Davies, The diary of Samuel Marchbanks, Clarke, Irwin (1947), XIX, Sunday * https://github.com/eggert/tz/blob/main/northamerica#L75 https://github.com/eggert/tz/blob/main/northamerica#L75
- nozzlegear 3mo ago
  > Sleep experts are all pretty much in agreement that permanent Standard Time is better. I wonder why we can't just push school back later in the winter? I guess that'd be a little disruptive to society (all the parents have to change their schedules depending on how it's implemented), but things are already disruptive with the time change, and summer vacation schedules, and so on. Just spitballing, I'd prefer permanent Standard Time myself too.
baal80spam 3mo ago
Nice, congrats US! EU promises to stop this madness every year for the last 6 years, and apparently it's impossible.
billev2k 3mo ago
Morons.
tantalor 3mo ago
We should really standardize on Time Cube https://www.timecube.net/ https://www.timecube.net/
deleted 3mo ago
[deleted]
knifeinhead 3mo ago
If this is really a conflict on which side to pick when we go permanent, why not just cut it in half and make that permanent? Like India has; it's a half hour in between.
xtiansimon 3mo ago
Of all the things Congress could be doing right now, it’s this!?

47 points by throw0101d 3mo ago

Perhaps worth noting that most medical and sleep/circadian research folks want permanent standard time: * https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/press-releases/ama-calls-permanent-standard-time https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/press-releases/ama-cal... * https://www.labmanager.com/new-position-statement-supports-permanent-standard-time-31215 https://www.labmanager.com/new-position-statement-supports-p... * http://www.chronobiology.ch/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/JBR-DST.pdf http://www.chronobiology.ch/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/JBR-D... * https://www.chronobiology.com/impact-daylight-saving-time-circadian-clock/ https://www.chronobiology.com/impact-daylight-saving-time-ci... * https://esrs.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/To_the_EU_Commission_on_DST.pdf https://esrs.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/To_the_EU_Commiss... * https://www.chronobiocanada.com/official-statements https://www.chronobiocanada.com/official-statements * https://srbr.org/advocacy/daylight-saving-time-presskit/ https://srbr.org/advocacy/daylight-saving-time-presskit/ * https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10476036/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10476036/ * https://old.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/dq2nv3/ https://old.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/dq2nv3/ > The authors take the position that, based on comparisons of large populations living in DST or ST or on western versus eastern edges of time zones, the advantages of permanent ST outweigh switching to DST annually or permanently. Four peer reviewers provided expert critiques of the initial submission, and the SRBR Executive Board approved the revised manuscript as a Position Paper to help educate the public in their evaluation of current legislative actions to end DST. […] The choice of DST is political and therefore can be changed. If we want to improve human health, we should not fight against our body clock, and therefore, we should abandon DST and return to Standard Time (which is when the sun clock time most closely matches the social clock time) throughout the year. This solution would fix both the acute and the chronic problems of DST. We therefore strongly support removing DST changes or removing permanent DST and having governing organizations choose permanent Standard Time for the health and safety of their citizens. * https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0748730419854197 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/07487304198541... Recent US public opinion: > As the March 9 [2025] switch to daylight saving time (DST) approaches in the U.S., the majority of Americans (54%) say they are ready to do away with the practice. By contrast, 40% of U.S. adults say they are in favor of daylight saving time, while 6% are uncertain. […] > The plurality of Americans, 48%, say they would prefer to have standard time the whole year, including summer. Half as many, 24%, prefer having daylight saving time in place the whole year, including winter. The smallest percentage, 19%, prefer the status quo of switching between the two each year. * https://news.gallup.com/poll/657584/half-daylight-saving-time-sunsetted.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/657584/half-daylight-saving-tim...

JMKH42 3mo ago
In the medium term wouldn't it likely not matter? Schedules will adjust to whatever permanent time system is adopted.
- macintux 3mo ago
  I doubt it. People seem to have a strong aversion to sleeping before sunset.
  - garciansmith 3mo ago
    How would permanent DST matter in that regard? Are people going to bed at like 4 pm in the winter and now upset they'd have to wait until 5? DST is already used in the summer (and 3/4 of the year).
    - macintux 3mo ago
      You're right, I should have referred to sunrise instead. For me, permanent DST would mean the sun doesn't come up until 9am in late December.
    - BeetleB 3mo ago
      It's about summer. And yes, some people hate it that there is still light out at 9:30pm.
- PunchyHamster 3mo ago
  It does depending what you do. For example, I'd rather have more sunlight available after my work day ends. But someone say working physical, outdoor job might prefer to have more sunlight early on. Or vice versa, have less of their work day in the afternoon heat peak
yearolinuxdsktp 3mo ago
I think that the gallup poll is flawed because it does not explain what daylight saving versus standard time is. I just spoke to an educated grad student, who thought that we were in standard time right now. Because the sun is out later during daylight saving time, the name is somewhat counter-intuitive. Also, because it’s on for most of the year, DST feels “standard.”

damnesian 3mo ago

Studies have been conducted about the safety of sticking to one time. The ones who are the most vulnerable are kids waiting for buses in the dark. We can't move to dynamic school times because we are still working the same paradigm as the industrial revolution- same schedule every day, year in year out. And society is simply too divided and fractured, and the motives too hidden and craven, to decide to move en masse to a dynamic schedule.

BeetleB 3mo ago
Studies also show that permanent standard time is better than permanent daylight time. But for some reason, the US wants to go against the rest of the world on this.
- ghaff 3mo ago
  You are aware that at least much of Europe uses a similar system to what the US uses today?
  - BeetleB 3mo ago
    Europe is less than 8% of the world's population. The vast majority of the world uses standard time. It works. No one there pines for permanent daylight time. Europe is wrong 50% of the time. The US[1] will be wrong 100% of the time. It can mostly get away with this because it spans the continent. But still, you're going to deal with the stupidity that crossing the Mexican border you will always have to correct your watch. [1] And Alberta + BC. But really - all of Canada is just a rounding error anyway!
    - ghaff 3mo ago
      Meanwhile, China has one timezone so I sort of doubt that DST registers given that.
    - esoterica 3mo ago
      > The vast majority of the world uses standard time. It works. No one there pines for permanent daylight time. Timezones are political, there are many cities and countries that are an hour or more west of the timezone implied by their longitude, which is equivalent to permanent daylight time, even if they don't call it permanent daylight time.

BeetleB 3mo ago

> and put the US under time currently observed between March and November - known as permanent standard time. Was that a typo?

gwbas1c 3mo ago

Am I the only person who thinks its odd that my government (US) thinks its can tell me what time to get up and go to bed? Before timezones, "noon" was the point where the sun was the highest in the sky. It seems we should focus on having our timezones be more in line with what "noon" is supposed to be: IE, major population centers should have "noon" close to true noon, with a little more flexibility for rural areas so they can stay on the same time as their closest major population center.

whycome 3mo ago
Or have a universal clock. But have regional start times. 9-5 makes no sense.
- IAmBroom 3mo ago
  9-5 is a red herring for this topic - but why does it make no sense to you?
  - eesmith 3mo ago
    If everyone follows the same clock, like, now is 12:30pm, across the entire world, then while everyone could also work 9-5, we know that most people like to be awake during daylight and asleep at night, so the local working hours might be 2-10. We can get an idea of the issues in China, which has a single national timezone instead of 4 or 5 geographical time zones. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_in_China > Beijing Time users in Xinjiang usually schedule their daily activities two hours later than those who live in eastern China. As such, stores and offices in Xinjiang are commonly open from 10:00 to 19:00 Beijing Time, which equals 08:00 to 17:00 in Ürümqi Time.[17] This is known as the work/rest time in Xinjiang. Thus, "9-5" would get a name like "work time", or the existing name of "day shift" would have increased popularity.
  - whycome 3mo ago
    Because we set it up so that our shared infrastructure goes under load at the same time instead of being better distributed. With a universal clock, there may be less pressure to start at shared time. Staggered starts.

Sindisil 3mo ago

As usual, when Congress finally moves to address an issue, they manage to do it in the stupidest possible way. Permanent Standard Time is the better choice in nearly every way.

Ar-Curunir 3mo ago
Why so? Having more time in the evening after work is way better. Getting out of work and it already being dark is depressing.
- Sindisil 3mo ago
  And many people find it depressing getting going in the morning when it's still dark. Plus, in Winter most people at best get off work around dusk anyway. In addition, most studies indicate health benefits for standard time relative to both switching and permanent DST. We tried permanent DST back in the 70s, and it sucked. We switched back. If we're going to make a change, it should be to standard time.

bsimpson 3mo ago

Glad to see progress made on this. In my 20s, I strongly considered taking some time off to create and drive petitions across the Pacific states to put us all on permanent PDT (matching Arizona). In my research, I saw it would take an act of Congress to make that happen, so I stood down.

BeetleB 3mo ago
> to put us all on permanent PDT (matching Arizona). Arizona is (wisely) on permanent standard time.
- bsimpson 3mo ago
  Yes, but PDT = MST

7777777phil 3mo ago

Wasn’t this already tried at least once and then reverted some 2 years later?

Brybry 3mo ago
Yeah but now everyone has cell phones and LED street lights that sometimes feel brighter than the sun. It's worth trying again, it's not like it can't be reverted again.
throw0101d 3mo ago
> Wasn’t this already tried at least once and then reverted some 2 years later? In the US in the 1970s, but more recently in Russia as well: * https://globalnews.ca/news/1469007/russia-abolishes-daylight-saving-time/ https://globalnews.ca/news/1469007/russia-abolishes-daylight... * https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/01/russia-state-duma-daylight-saving-time-summer https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/01/russia-state-d...
- Brybry 3mo ago
  Note that, as your sources state, Russia tried permanent DST and changed to permanent standard time instead. They didn't revert back to a system of switching between DST and ST annually.

jmuguy 3mo ago

Maybe they'll actually do it this time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanent_time_observation_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanent_time_observation_in_...

slackfan 3mo ago

This is fine, provided we add the extra necessary time zone.

Georgelemental 3mo ago

Boo, hiss. Permanent Standard Time is better in every way https://savestandardtime.com/ https://savestandardtime.com/

tantalor 3mo ago
These arguments aren't very convincing.
hammock 3mo ago
Agree but now we could change 9-5 workday to 8-4 and that is better also
GoblinSlayer 3mo ago
It's just names, might as well call it humpty dumpty time. Local time is defined by offset from UTC.
SAI_Peregrinus 3mo ago
Boo! Permanent Dawn time is better. Every day at 03:00, set the time when the upper limb of the sun will cross the sea-level horizon at the equator to 06:30. That means kids never have to wait for the bus in the morning in the dark, except at high latitudes in winter but who cares about those kids right? /s
- 7e 3mo ago
  That is actually better in every way! Assuming the time zones are 2D so the dawn is local. It would probably cut down on cancer rates, too, by harmonizing circadian rhythms.
  - BobaFloutist 3mo ago
    I've been a fan of continuous time change for a while now. In theory, to get a similar result to the hour change twice a year, you only need ~20 seconds of change every day, though I think you could do even better if you took location into account. I wonder how hard it would be to program an alarm to automatically offset a default wakeup time based on location and season to always occur after dawn while minimizing daily delta (and obviously allowing for an override "wake up at h:mm local time tomorrow, my work meeting doesn't care about my snowflake sleep program." Seems relatively achievable, but maybe harder to integrate into a normal phone UX.

ksec 3mo ago

I wonder if UK will follow as well.

abecedarius 3mo ago

[dead]

WarmWash 3mo ago

Permanent standard time means less sunlight time after work. Permanent DST means kids walking to school in the dark. Changing the clock twice a year fixes that and lets us avoid both, with the only cost being people complaining for a day afterwards. It's like ripping off the bandaid, instead of doing a slow agonizing pull that lasts months. And yes, I know some people take like 6 weeks to adjust and they will complain incessantly to stop it, but for the whole group, the least painful thing (I'd argue by far) is just moving the clock an hour.

hammock 3mo ago
I agree permanent standard time is a better solution. But maybe we change work to 8-4 from 9-5 and might be better that way anyway.
- alistairSH 3mo ago
  Does anybody actually work 9-5 (ie 7 hours assuming they take a break or two)?
  - BeetleB 3mo ago
    Most of us. (It's actually 8-5 with an hour's break).
    - alistairSH 3mo ago
      Which was my point - 9-5 isn't really a thing, it's usually 8-5 or 9-6 or worse. If we're going to adjust time zone, we should at least agree on when most people are/are-not at the office/school/farm fields/etc.
- ajsnigrutin 3mo ago
  > But maybe we change work to 8-4 from 9-5 and might be better that way anyway. Why not change the working hours of stores, and tv programming and other schedules too? In the end, you get the same thing as a clock change, but having to change the times of everything everywhere.

johnohara 3mo ago

In the upper midwest, daylight savings time generally gives way to tractor-mounted LED time as contracted harvesting companies switch into high production to beat the late-fall rain.

flying4781 3mo ago

The engineer in me wants standard time, but the human in me wants daylight time.

ghaff 3mo ago
Essentially you're just redefining the standard UTC offset for US timezones.

jcranmer 3mo ago

Permanent DST sounds good to a lot of people, until they actually experience it. The US went on permanent DST in the 1970s and support plummeted after the first winter in DST (which is why we're not on it anymore). Of course, since it was 50 years ago, that means most people alive in the US don't remember the days of permanent DST. The problem, I think, is that what a lot of people want is they want the sun to set quite late, like it does in summer time. But DST isn't going to give you those long summer afternoons in winter, because the sun just isn't up long enough; and the trade-off you'd make for maybe coming off work into the start of dusk is that dawn would start after you start working, which turns out to be pretty bad for your circadian rhythm.

throw0101d 3mo ago
> The US went on permanent DST in the 1970s and support plummeted after the first winter in DST (which is why we're not on it anymore). More recently Russia tried pDST and went away from it: * https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/01/russia-state-duma-daylight-saving-time-summer https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/01/russia-state-d... A more southern-lattitude country, Turkey, has stuck with pDST, though some folks don't/didn't like it because of enrichment allegations: * https://www.turkishminute.com/2024/10/31/permanent-daylight-saving-time-in-turkey-criticized-for-benefitin-compn-rathr-thn-people/ https://www.turkishminute.com/2024/10/31/permanent-daylight-...
apple4ever 2mo ago
As you said, that was 50 years ago. Technology and culture has changed since then. I think Permanent DST is the best, because more sun in the afternoon in the winter is better, but in either case, let's just stop switching.

water-data-dude 3mo ago

The only time the Sunshine Protection Act has passed the senate was when gosh danged Tom Cotton wasn't there[0]. I swear, he's in the pocket of Big Time[1]. [0]https://www.mediaite.com/politics/that-daylight-saving-time-bill-passed-because-a-bunch-of-senators-just-werent-paying-attention/ https://www.mediaite.com/politics/that-daylight-saving-time-... [1]https://www.cotton.senate.gov/news/speeches/floor-speech-on-opposing-the-sunshine-protection-act https://www.cotton.senate.gov/news/speeches/floor-speech-on-...

Auracle 3mo ago

For night owls and teenagers, who already have a hard time in society, Daylight Saving Time makes things far worse. It’s been tried and failed, already, primarily due to school/kids issues. The sun will rise really, really late in the dead of winter in some places. Sleep experts are all pretty much in agreement that permanent Standard Time is better. I’d be all for permanent Standard Time but there’s no way that’ll happen with the old people in charge of our government. Most of them probably wake up at 4am already.

rconti 3mo ago
As a night owl who sleeps late, I'm stoked to not waste morning daylight while I'm sleeping, and have more time in the evening to go out and do shit before it gets dark.
- deleted 3mo ago
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- throw0101d 3mo ago
  I don't really care how time is reckoned so long as there is some agreement about it, but I object to being told that I am saving daylight when my reason tells me that I am doing nothing of the kind. I even object to the implication that I am wasting something valuable if I stay in bed after the sun has risen. As an admirer of moonlight I resent the bossy insistence of those who want to reduce my time for enjoying it. At the back of the Daylight Saving scheme I detect the bony, blue-fingered hand of Puritanism, eager to push people into bed earlier, and get them up earlier, to make them healthy, wealthy and wise in spite of themselves. -- Robertson Davies, The diary of Samuel Marchbanks, Clarke, Irwin (1947), XIX, Sunday * https://github.com/eggert/tz/blob/main/northamerica#L75 https://github.com/eggert/tz/blob/main/northamerica#L75
nozzlegear 3mo ago
> Sleep experts are all pretty much in agreement that permanent Standard Time is better. I wonder why we can't just push school back later in the winter? I guess that'd be a little disruptive to society (all the parents have to change their schedules depending on how it's implemented), but things are already disruptive with the time change, and summer vacation schedules, and so on. Just spitballing, I'd prefer permanent Standard Time myself too.

baal80spam 3mo ago

Nice, congrats US! EU promises to stop this madness every year for the last 6 years, and apparently it's impossible.

billev2k 3mo ago

Morons.

tantalor 3mo ago

We should really standardize on Time Cube https://www.timecube.net/ https://www.timecube.net/

deleted 3mo ago

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knifeinhead 3mo ago

If this is really a conflict on which side to pick when we go permanent, why not just cut it in half and make that permanent? Like India has; it's a half hour in between.

xtiansimon 3mo ago

Of all the things Congress could be doing right now, it’s this!?