5 ms·

Most of y’all need to buck up. If day to day engineering tasks are so challenging for you maybe the anxiety and depression you’re feeling is your system telling

Most of y’all need to buck up. If day to day engineering tasks are so challenging for you maybe the anxiety and depression you’re feeling is your system telling you that you are in misalignment. Why are you an engineer if you are struggling to complete the basic tasks? Are you meant to be doing what you are doing?

alphawhisky 3mo ago
Rare and needed reminder in the big '26
jvanderbot 3mo ago
This is one side of the elephant. It's true a steel inner strength is required in day to day engineering. It's hard, and it lacks positive reinformcement almost always. When you hear something it is bad. But let's define "buck up" and see the other side of the elephant. That blog post is a textbook example of negative self talk. You can have a world that looks down on you and spit back at it and do your best work, but if you look down on yourself you _will not_ bootstrap your way out, because you learn to believe you cannot. That is depression, and depression is reinforced if not caused by that self-talk. Addressing the self-talk and stopping the flagellation will allow that steel inner strength to build up. Medication is a parachute but the wings and engine need to be rebuilt using self confidence, and that's a long road of: * reframing failures as lessons * honesty with self about your own role in your depression * careful build-up of support * learning to find the important and good in each memory, vs the deprecating and painful
- quantummagic 3mo ago
  I think the point was that there are people who don't need all this extra work, it just comes naturally. And they are more suited to engineering than people who need to spend a lot of energy on emotional and mental regulation as well.
  - jvanderbot 3mo ago
    Yes - you are identifying a non-depressed engineer. A depressed engineer can become one of those by removing the depression.
    - quantummagic 3mo ago
      No, the point is that not everyone is cut out to be an engineer. If you find yourself being depressed as an engineer, one possibility is that it's really not the job for you. Not everyone is capable of being an engineer, and being prone to emotional disregulation is probably a good indicator. Not to say you can't muddle through, but the original post was saying that you should at least ask yourself if you'd be happier elsewhere.
      - travelalberta 3mo ago
        Yeah, you articulated it better than me. Especially in the case where the OP is indicating that a lot of their stress comes from inability to perform or get better in an engineering context. If after a few years you aren't feeling more confident in your skills or aren't more comfortable with your tech stack it's time to re-evaluate. OP mentions they prioritize stability and I think a lot of people get into engineering for the wrong reasons. In my opinion the prerequisites are a natural aptitude and a genuine curiosity.
        jvanderbot 3mo ago
        You're all correct. I'm just not convinced that the person wouldn't have those if they were relieved of the burdens holding them down. It can be simultaneously true that they are struggling and unlikely to succeed now, and that their natural aptitude is not being realized due to non-work factors. Hell, one time my friend died suddenly, and I failed out of every project I was on and developed a ton of health problems. Since then, I've gone back to my natural state, but it was hard. Anyone looking at me during that time would have seen a distracted fuckup. I probably would have been given an ADHD diagnosis and drugged heavily, were it not for the acute signal from the proximity of a good friends sudden murder.
- travelalberta 3mo ago
  Too much therapy speak here. You can't think your way out of depression. Only by taking action can you change things. Fix your body first. Then learn to socialize. Then get good at something (ideally something you can make money from). Think in terms of systems not goals. As a man your only way out is action (I can't speak on the female side of things).
  - jvanderbot 3mo ago
    Right, it's very easy to dismiss the general therapy talk. I'm not a fan myself. Exercise, cultivating positive fear responses, self-challenge are all important. What you're pinning as "therapy talk" is just that last one - you need to think critically about how you approach life problems, not just accept the most negative interpretation of events and your inner monologue. I think any stoic would agree with that statement.
  - kmoser 3mo ago
    If your body is in shape, you can socialize, and you're good at your job that pays you well, you can still suffer from depression.
skydhash 3mo ago
If there’s one thing I would like to add is that engineering is a much of a mindset than knowledge. I have friends in software development and they do not enjoy the practice at all. Everything is just chores to them. I won’t say “follow your passion” (which is often a terrible advice). But if you can’t take some joy in what you’re doing (either the act or the goal), your body will rebel in various ways.
yondys 3mo ago
I wish it was this easy. But mental health is as complex and multifaceted as our brain is. There can be more than one reason why a once happy engineer is now struggling to complete basic tasks, and they are often hard to find and explain or to relate to simple explanations like these (which is why more and more people are turning to therapy for answers). You raise good questions, but thousands more could be asked: Are you taking care of your foundations? Sleeping enough? Eating nutritious food? Do you have any bad habits or trauma that you haven't even acknowledged to yourself? Is your work environment healthy? What things aren't healthy that you've normalised? Are you seeing enough friendly people in your day to day life? And so on. My point is that there are rarely easy answers to easy questions such as these, so "bucking up" can be seen as either great advice or irresponsible and insensitive, and it doesn't necessarely apply to "most of y'all". So maybe you need to buck up, but also don't be frustrated if you don't. Maybe the solution is elsewhere.
- travelalberta 3mo ago
  I think mental health is way over blown in terms of complexity. >My point is that there are rarely easy answers to easy questions such as these I'd argue these are all binary questions and pretty easy to answer: >Eating nutritious food? : Yes/No >Sleeping enough?: Yes/No >Are you taking care of your foundations? Yes/No based on above plus Yes/No to "Sufficient Exercise?" >Do you have any bad habits or trauma that you haven't even acknowledged to yourself?: Yes/No (Stop playing videogames, reduce phone use, limit drugs and alcohol) >Is your work environment healthy?: Yes/No (If 'No' how can you leave it) > Are you seeing enough friendly people in your day to day life? : Yes/No An easy happiness formula is: 1. Eat right: Maintain a healthy diet to keep your physical energy stable. 2. Exercise: Keep active every day to release mood-boosting chemicals. 3. Get enough sleep: Prioritize rest to reset your mental state. 4. Imagine an incredible future: Daydream about grand possibilities, even if you don't fully believe them at first. 5. Work toward a flexible schedule: Having control over your time is one of the highest drivers of happiness. 6. Do things you can steadily improve at: Progress and mastery trigger the chemicals in your body that make you happy. 7. Help others: Once you’ve helped yourself first, giving back provides profound psychological benefits. 8. Reduce daily decisions to routine: Remove mental clutter and decision fatigue by establishing steady habits
deleted 3mo ago
[deleted]
kgwxd 3mo ago
Very, very, very little of real-world software dev is anything close to "engineering".
- skydhash 3mo ago
  Take any long-running successful project, and you’ll find that they practice an engineering-like discipline to make it sustainable.
  - voakbasda 3mo ago
    And the difference will be as stark as steak is from stew. To be clear, “engineering-like” is not “engineering”.
    - skydhash 3mo ago
      I’ve studied Electronic Engineering (and interacted with the Civil Engineering classes). And the main difference is that physical laws are inflexible and failure cases may result in deaths, maiming, and material damages. Software constraints are more forgiving in most cases. But that does not means a total lack of discipline has no negative impact. Au contraire, an engineering mindset greatly improves the chances of successfully delivering a project.
      - travelalberta 3mo ago
        I think non-engineering mindsets in any sort of engineering/engineering adjacent role is the cause of a lot of friction. >Very, very, very little of real-world software dev is anything close to "engineering". I mean same principles apply in general. > If there’s one thing I would like to add is that engineering is a much of a mindset than knowledge. Amen. > I won’t say “follow your passion” (which is often a terrible advice). But if you can’t take some joy in what you’re doing (either the act or the goal), your body will rebel in various ways. The official definition of engineering is: "Engineering is the application of mathematics and scientific principles to design, build, and optimize structures, machines, systems, and processes." Software development falls into this definition. If there isn't something in this definition you like then you're in the wrong job. I find joy in optimizing processes. No matter what scale, a well designed and optimized system brings me joy.
tycho-newman 3mo ago
Robert Sapolsky has a fantastic discussion of depression as a form of learned helplessness. We see it in abused animals: https://youtu.be/NOAgplgTxfc?is=YnnSt1292XjiGbEE https://youtu.be/NOAgplgTxfc?is=YnnSt1292XjiGbEE You are not much different from any other animal at some level. With enough conditioning you will believe that you have no agency over your own life, and you’ll just sit there and take the shocks hoping it ends soon. Or worse, you’ll lose perspective and imagine the only solution to your current (likely temporary) circumstance is to (definitely very permanently) end your own life.
malfist 3mo ago
Thanks! I'm cured! I'm glad you told me to man up, I'd never thought to do that myself. I know that this is a glib response, but really that's the only way to respond to these comments. They're farcical and we have long known them to be unreasonable. Mocking them is the only way to get some people to learn it seems.
- travelalberta 3mo ago
  https://www.youtube.com/@ElishaLong https://www.youtube.com/@ElishaLong
- mayhemducks 3mo ago
  [dead]
dwaltrip 3mo ago
You need to communicate better. One of the most important steps is to know your audience. This means you need to understand where they are coming from. Without this understanding, your words are unlikely to be correct and useful. To communicate clearly is to think clearly. If you can’t follow these basics, why are you even writing comments? Are you meant to be using the internet?
ramon156 3mo ago
I definitely understand where your response comes from. You cannot work with people that keep screwing up the work you're doing. It costs the company money, it frustrates colleagues, and you end up just wasting people's time. The thing is that I have now learned that I cannot do it. To play devil's advocate, I might just be a lazy bum. I still think it's good to be aware that you can walk away from a position that you know you cannot do. Buckling up will not help me here. I've been upbuckling for two years now, and my buckles keep going down.

alphawhisky 3mo ago

Rare and needed reminder in the big '26

jvanderbot 3mo ago

This is one side of the elephant. It's true a steel inner strength is required in day to day engineering. It's hard, and it lacks positive reinformcement almost always. When you hear something it is bad. But let's define "buck up" and see the other side of the elephant. That blog post is a textbook example of negative self talk. You can have a world that looks down on you and spit back at it and do your best work, but if you look down on yourself you _will not_ bootstrap your way out, because you learn to believe you cannot. That is depression, and depression is reinforced if not caused by that self-talk. Addressing the self-talk and stopping the flagellation will allow that steel inner strength to build up. Medication is a parachute but the wings and engine need to be rebuilt using self confidence, and that's a long road of: * reframing failures as lessons * honesty with self about your own role in your depression * careful build-up of support * learning to find the important and good in each memory, vs the deprecating and painful

quantummagic 3mo ago
I think the point was that there are people who don't need all this extra work, it just comes naturally. And they are more suited to engineering than people who need to spend a lot of energy on emotional and mental regulation as well.
- jvanderbot 3mo ago
  Yes - you are identifying a non-depressed engineer. A depressed engineer can become one of those by removing the depression.
  - quantummagic 3mo ago
    No, the point is that not everyone is cut out to be an engineer. If you find yourself being depressed as an engineer, one possibility is that it's really not the job for you. Not everyone is capable of being an engineer, and being prone to emotional disregulation is probably a good indicator. Not to say you can't muddle through, but the original post was saying that you should at least ask yourself if you'd be happier elsewhere.
    - travelalberta 3mo ago
      Yeah, you articulated it better than me. Especially in the case where the OP is indicating that a lot of their stress comes from inability to perform or get better in an engineering context. If after a few years you aren't feeling more confident in your skills or aren't more comfortable with your tech stack it's time to re-evaluate. OP mentions they prioritize stability and I think a lot of people get into engineering for the wrong reasons. In my opinion the prerequisites are a natural aptitude and a genuine curiosity.
      - jvanderbot 3mo ago
        You're all correct. I'm just not convinced that the person wouldn't have those if they were relieved of the burdens holding them down. It can be simultaneously true that they are struggling and unlikely to succeed now, and that their natural aptitude is not being realized due to non-work factors. Hell, one time my friend died suddenly, and I failed out of every project I was on and developed a ton of health problems. Since then, I've gone back to my natural state, but it was hard. Anyone looking at me during that time would have seen a distracted fuckup. I probably would have been given an ADHD diagnosis and drugged heavily, were it not for the acute signal from the proximity of a good friends sudden murder.
travelalberta 3mo ago
Too much therapy speak here. You can't think your way out of depression. Only by taking action can you change things. Fix your body first. Then learn to socialize. Then get good at something (ideally something you can make money from). Think in terms of systems not goals. As a man your only way out is action (I can't speak on the female side of things).
- jvanderbot 3mo ago
  Right, it's very easy to dismiss the general therapy talk. I'm not a fan myself. Exercise, cultivating positive fear responses, self-challenge are all important. What you're pinning as "therapy talk" is just that last one - you need to think critically about how you approach life problems, not just accept the most negative interpretation of events and your inner monologue. I think any stoic would agree with that statement.
- kmoser 3mo ago
  If your body is in shape, you can socialize, and you're good at your job that pays you well, you can still suffer from depression.

skydhash 3mo ago

If there’s one thing I would like to add is that engineering is a much of a mindset than knowledge. I have friends in software development and they do not enjoy the practice at all. Everything is just chores to them. I won’t say “follow your passion” (which is often a terrible advice). But if you can’t take some joy in what you’re doing (either the act or the goal), your body will rebel in various ways.

yondys 3mo ago

I wish it was this easy. But mental health is as complex and multifaceted as our brain is. There can be more than one reason why a once happy engineer is now struggling to complete basic tasks, and they are often hard to find and explain or to relate to simple explanations like these (which is why more and more people are turning to therapy for answers). You raise good questions, but thousands more could be asked: Are you taking care of your foundations? Sleeping enough? Eating nutritious food? Do you have any bad habits or trauma that you haven't even acknowledged to yourself? Is your work environment healthy? What things aren't healthy that you've normalised? Are you seeing enough friendly people in your day to day life? And so on. My point is that there are rarely easy answers to easy questions such as these, so "bucking up" can be seen as either great advice or irresponsible and insensitive, and it doesn't necessarely apply to "most of y'all". So maybe you need to buck up, but also don't be frustrated if you don't. Maybe the solution is elsewhere.

travelalberta 3mo ago
I think mental health is way over blown in terms of complexity. >My point is that there are rarely easy answers to easy questions such as these I'd argue these are all binary questions and pretty easy to answer: >Eating nutritious food? : Yes/No >Sleeping enough?: Yes/No >Are you taking care of your foundations? Yes/No based on above plus Yes/No to "Sufficient Exercise?" >Do you have any bad habits or trauma that you haven't even acknowledged to yourself?: Yes/No (Stop playing videogames, reduce phone use, limit drugs and alcohol) >Is your work environment healthy?: Yes/No (If 'No' how can you leave it) > Are you seeing enough friendly people in your day to day life? : Yes/No An easy happiness formula is: 1. Eat right: Maintain a healthy diet to keep your physical energy stable. 2. Exercise: Keep active every day to release mood-boosting chemicals. 3. Get enough sleep: Prioritize rest to reset your mental state. 4. Imagine an incredible future: Daydream about grand possibilities, even if you don't fully believe them at first. 5. Work toward a flexible schedule: Having control over your time is one of the highest drivers of happiness. 6. Do things you can steadily improve at: Progress and mastery trigger the chemicals in your body that make you happy. 7. Help others: Once you’ve helped yourself first, giving back provides profound psychological benefits. 8. Reduce daily decisions to routine: Remove mental clutter and decision fatigue by establishing steady habits

deleted 3mo ago

[deleted]

kgwxd 3mo ago

Very, very, very little of real-world software dev is anything close to "engineering".

skydhash 3mo ago
Take any long-running successful project, and you’ll find that they practice an engineering-like discipline to make it sustainable.
- voakbasda 3mo ago
  And the difference will be as stark as steak is from stew. To be clear, “engineering-like” is not “engineering”.
  - skydhash 3mo ago
    I’ve studied Electronic Engineering (and interacted with the Civil Engineering classes). And the main difference is that physical laws are inflexible and failure cases may result in deaths, maiming, and material damages. Software constraints are more forgiving in most cases. But that does not means a total lack of discipline has no negative impact. Au contraire, an engineering mindset greatly improves the chances of successfully delivering a project.
    - travelalberta 3mo ago
      I think non-engineering mindsets in any sort of engineering/engineering adjacent role is the cause of a lot of friction. >Very, very, very little of real-world software dev is anything close to "engineering". I mean same principles apply in general. > If there’s one thing I would like to add is that engineering is a much of a mindset than knowledge. Amen. > I won’t say “follow your passion” (which is often a terrible advice). But if you can’t take some joy in what you’re doing (either the act or the goal), your body will rebel in various ways. The official definition of engineering is: "Engineering is the application of mathematics and scientific principles to design, build, and optimize structures, machines, systems, and processes." Software development falls into this definition. If there isn't something in this definition you like then you're in the wrong job. I find joy in optimizing processes. No matter what scale, a well designed and optimized system brings me joy.

tycho-newman 3mo ago

Robert Sapolsky has a fantastic discussion of depression as a form of learned helplessness. We see it in abused animals: https://youtu.be/NOAgplgTxfc?is=YnnSt1292XjiGbEE https://youtu.be/NOAgplgTxfc?is=YnnSt1292XjiGbEE You are not much different from any other animal at some level. With enough conditioning you will believe that you have no agency over your own life, and you’ll just sit there and take the shocks hoping it ends soon. Or worse, you’ll lose perspective and imagine the only solution to your current (likely temporary) circumstance is to (definitely very permanently) end your own life.

malfist 3mo ago

Thanks! I'm cured! I'm glad you told me to man up, I'd never thought to do that myself. I know that this is a glib response, but really that's the only way to respond to these comments. They're farcical and we have long known them to be unreasonable. Mocking them is the only way to get some people to learn it seems.

travelalberta 3mo ago
https://www.youtube.com/@ElishaLong https://www.youtube.com/@ElishaLong
mayhemducks 3mo ago
[dead]

dwaltrip 3mo ago

You need to communicate better. One of the most important steps is to know your audience. This means you need to understand where they are coming from. Without this understanding, your words are unlikely to be correct and useful. To communicate clearly is to think clearly. If you can’t follow these basics, why are you even writing comments? Are you meant to be using the internet?

ramon156 3mo ago

I definitely understand where your response comes from. You cannot work with people that keep screwing up the work you're doing. It costs the company money, it frustrates colleagues, and you end up just wasting people's time. The thing is that I have now learned that I cannot do it. To play devil's advocate, I might just be a lazy bum. I still think it's good to be aware that you can walk away from a position that you know you cannot do. Buckling up will not help me here. I've been upbuckling for two years now, and my buckles keep going down.