2 ms·

>Gibraltar has been part of the UK for over 300 years and the people are all UK citizens. Is this your standard for whether or not something is colonialism? Do

>Gibraltar has been part of the UK for over 300 years and the people are all UK citizens. Is this your standard for whether or not something is colonialism? Do you apply it consistently throughout, even when its inconvenient for you?

kdheiwns 2mo ago
My definition of colonialism generally involves people being subjugated and being treated as less and involuntarily part of an empire. People in Gibraltar are British citizens with full rights by definition. Land borders that one doesn't like doesn't equate to colonialism. It's just a land border that you don't like. The people of Gibraltar voted almost 100% to be British on more than one occasion. Trying to make them not British is the definition of colonialism
- Pragmata 2mo ago
  Would you hold that standard towards Angola in 1973? The vast majority of its inhabitants were portuguese citizens with the exact same rights and duties as any other portuguese citizen in Lisbon. The majority of that territory (and certainly the parts with most of the population) was portuguese for 500+ years.
inglor_cz 2mo ago
"Colonialism" is a weird Western guilt fetish that some others successfully milk. After 10 generations, the people are every bit as local as the previous population was. 300 years is such an abyss of time that most of us would fail to name a single of our ancestors by name. Kladsko was a Czech city from approx. 1000 to 1742. The old town still looks a bit like very small Prague [0]. Was lost in a war (to the Prussians no less), it is gone, not our anymore. Tough luck. Others live there now, it is theirs. [0] https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kladsko_(město)#/media/Soubor:2014_Most_gotycki_i_kościół_MBR_w_Kłodzku.jpg https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kladsko_(město)#/media/Soubor:...
- AlecSchueler 2mo ago
  > "Colonialism" is a weird Western guilt fetish that some others successfully milk Colonialism is the historical basis of almost all of global society today. It's not at all weird to be concerned with it when it still drives so much of the relative power dynamics between states and between people(s) today. The example you're giving of Czechia and Prussia simply isn't an example of a colonial action.
  - inglor_cz 2mo ago
    That requires buying into the very concept that "colonialism" is a specific sin different (and worse) from ye olde "I am stronger than you and will occupy your territory and take your wealth". I have even met people who claim that Russian expansion into Siberia was not colonialism, because it wasn't done using ships. I don't really buy it. It feels to me as unnatural as if somebody decided that theft of, say, a smartphone, was a separate and much graver offence than theft of anything else. It only makes sense to me if there is an underlying ideology, or maybe very practical demands for reparations which shouldn't be hindered by other demands for reparations, and thus the others need to be downgraded pre-emptively. It may also come handy for distraction from domestic governance failures, such as bad security situation, rolling blackouts, subpar maintenance of infrastructure and endemic corruption. "Hey, don't look into this, you know how bad the colonialists were?" (Fairly similar to the way the contemporary Russian propaganda tries to pin the failure of their current war of aggression on anyone and anything but their own stupid decision to go all in.)
    - AlecSchueler 2mo ago
      > That requires buying into the very concept that "colonialism" is a specific sin different (and worse) from ye olde "I am stronger than you and will occupy your territory and take your wealth". It does, yes, and completely reasonably so. That's why it has a different name. > .. as if somebody decided that theft of, say, a smartphone, was a separate and much graver offence... Yes, it is like that indeed and I'm sure you'll recognise the difference between intellectual property theft and the theft of a car, or the difference between stealing food from a supermarket and stealing food from a beggar. > I don't really buy it > It only makes sense to me if there is an underlying ideology Ok? Maybe read some more about it. Right now it feels like you're the one pushing an ideology without really making an argument for it. > It may also come handy for distraction from domestic governance failures Yes, it might. Governments have a host of ways to distract the public from issues. That doesn't change the reality of the history of, or contemporary effects of, colonialism. > ... similar to the way the contemporary Russian propaganda ... Boogeyman argument and an emotional appeal.
maccard 2mo ago
Each of these countries, enclaves, territories, settlements, borders have massive amounts of history that shape why they are the way they are, and attempting to say "this rule should apply equally to all of them" shows a huge misunderstanding of why they are unique.
halJordan 2mo ago
I mean, do you think the east prussia should be returned to Germany? Should West Virginia be retrieved to Virginia?
- AlecSchueler 2mo ago
  Those cases didn't involve colonisation. Though Virginia certainly did if you go back a little further.
  - general1465 2mo ago
    Kaliningrad has been colonized properly by Russians, right after removing indigenous population.

kdheiwns 2mo ago

My definition of colonialism generally involves people being subjugated and being treated as less and involuntarily part of an empire. People in Gibraltar are British citizens with full rights by definition. Land borders that one doesn't like doesn't equate to colonialism. It's just a land border that you don't like. The people of Gibraltar voted almost 100% to be British on more than one occasion. Trying to make them not British is the definition of colonialism

Pragmata 2mo ago
Would you hold that standard towards Angola in 1973? The vast majority of its inhabitants were portuguese citizens with the exact same rights and duties as any other portuguese citizen in Lisbon. The majority of that territory (and certainly the parts with most of the population) was portuguese for 500+ years.

inglor_cz 2mo ago

"Colonialism" is a weird Western guilt fetish that some others successfully milk. After 10 generations, the people are every bit as local as the previous population was. 300 years is such an abyss of time that most of us would fail to name a single of our ancestors by name. Kladsko was a Czech city from approx. 1000 to 1742. The old town still looks a bit like very small Prague [0]. Was lost in a war (to the Prussians no less), it is gone, not our anymore. Tough luck. Others live there now, it is theirs. [0] https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kladsko_(město)#/media/Soubor:2014_Most_gotycki_i_kościół_MBR_w_Kłodzku.jpg https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kladsko_(město)#/media/Soubor:...

AlecSchueler 2mo ago
> "Colonialism" is a weird Western guilt fetish that some others successfully milk Colonialism is the historical basis of almost all of global society today. It's not at all weird to be concerned with it when it still drives so much of the relative power dynamics between states and between people(s) today. The example you're giving of Czechia and Prussia simply isn't an example of a colonial action.
- inglor_cz 2mo ago
  That requires buying into the very concept that "colonialism" is a specific sin different (and worse) from ye olde "I am stronger than you and will occupy your territory and take your wealth". I have even met people who claim that Russian expansion into Siberia was not colonialism, because it wasn't done using ships. I don't really buy it. It feels to me as unnatural as if somebody decided that theft of, say, a smartphone, was a separate and much graver offence than theft of anything else. It only makes sense to me if there is an underlying ideology, or maybe very practical demands for reparations which shouldn't be hindered by other demands for reparations, and thus the others need to be downgraded pre-emptively. It may also come handy for distraction from domestic governance failures, such as bad security situation, rolling blackouts, subpar maintenance of infrastructure and endemic corruption. "Hey, don't look into this, you know how bad the colonialists were?" (Fairly similar to the way the contemporary Russian propaganda tries to pin the failure of their current war of aggression on anyone and anything but their own stupid decision to go all in.)
  - AlecSchueler 2mo ago
    > That requires buying into the very concept that "colonialism" is a specific sin different (and worse) from ye olde "I am stronger than you and will occupy your territory and take your wealth". It does, yes, and completely reasonably so. That's why it has a different name. > .. as if somebody decided that theft of, say, a smartphone, was a separate and much graver offence... Yes, it is like that indeed and I'm sure you'll recognise the difference between intellectual property theft and the theft of a car, or the difference between stealing food from a supermarket and stealing food from a beggar. > I don't really buy it > It only makes sense to me if there is an underlying ideology Ok? Maybe read some more about it. Right now it feels like you're the one pushing an ideology without really making an argument for it. > It may also come handy for distraction from domestic governance failures Yes, it might. Governments have a host of ways to distract the public from issues. That doesn't change the reality of the history of, or contemporary effects of, colonialism. > ... similar to the way the contemporary Russian propaganda ... Boogeyman argument and an emotional appeal.

maccard 2mo ago

Each of these countries, enclaves, territories, settlements, borders have massive amounts of history that shape why they are the way they are, and attempting to say "this rule should apply equally to all of them" shows a huge misunderstanding of why they are unique.

halJordan 2mo ago

I mean, do you think the east prussia should be returned to Germany? Should West Virginia be retrieved to Virginia?

AlecSchueler 2mo ago
Those cases didn't involve colonisation. Though Virginia certainly did if you go back a little further.
- general1465 2mo ago
  Kaliningrad has been colonized properly by Russians, right after removing indigenous population.