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>If the U.S. changed some policies – such as increasing the federal minimum wage – 46 million people could earn enough to rise above that fair pay line. You ca

>If the U.S. changed some policies – such as increasing the federal minimum wage – 46 million people could earn enough to rise above that fair pay line. You can't just raise minimum wage and expect people to make more money since businesses need to fire everyone who aren't worth the new minimum wage and then those newly unemployed people will depress wages for other jobs since there is more labor on the supply side.

frotaur 3mo ago
Check out https://arindube.substack.com/p/a-minimum-wage-natural-experiment https://arindube.substack.com/p/a-minimum-wage-natural-exper..., very good post comparing states with minimum wage and without, that seem to go against this often repeated argument.
- logicchains 3mo ago
  Then why not raise minimum wage to $100? Obviously there's a limit.
  - inigyou 3mo ago
    "we should make murder illegal" "then why not make sleeping illegal? obviously there's a limit"
- charcircuit 3mo ago
  There is bias in which states increased minimum wage or not. It's like attributing the massive tech salaries in Silicon Valley vs Maine because minimum wage exists.
thatwasunusual 3mo ago
> You can't just raise minimum wage and expect people to make more money since businesses need to fire everyone who aren't worth the new minimum wage [...] This way of thinking is what's wrong with USA (among many other things). You don't (or at least shouldn't) hire lots of people because it's cheap.
- cyberjerkXX 3mo ago
  It's a voluntary agreement between people. It's not immoral to pay minimum wage to someone when they both agree. I find it to be immoral for the government to force themselves into the agreement. Only ~1% of people in the US make federal minimum wage. ~58% of that 1% are serving related occupations who collect tips that are not counted in BLS wage data. You need to use median wage - which is ~$24 for all occupations.
- freedomben 3mo ago
  If that way of thinking is wrong, why not just make the minimum wage a million an hour and let everyone be mega wealthy? What do you think would happen if we passed that? Edit: to the down voters, what is your answer to the question?
  - tstrimple 3mo ago
    > “Oh water is healthy for you? Why don’t you drink a hundred gallons a day? Checkmate atheists!” Brilliant argument you have there.
    - freedomben 3mo ago
      You didn't answer the question. I suspect that is because basic economics kicks in and you quickly realize that you can't just raise the minimum wage as high as you want and expect it to work. It is a complicated and complex and highly nuanced thing. Your water example actually reinforces my point. If GP ignores the reality around drinking too much water, they will poison themselves, just like ignoring the reality around minimum wage would destroy things.
      - tstrimple 3mo ago
        Because the question is stupid on its face. If thing X is good, 1000x X must be good too is such a stupid fucking mentality. It doesn't apply to literally anything. Vitamin C is good. Too much is toxic. Sun exposure is good. Too much is toxic. Drinking water is good. Too much is toxic. Such a basic fucking concept that exists across basically everything in our society. Yet here you are stating that because a higher minimum wage is good, it must be more good to make the minimum wage "a million an hour" too right? Which doesn't follow at all based on literally any other example of things that are "good". It's mind-numbingly stupid. It's a ridiculous straw-man made by someone either disingenuous or ignorant.
gadders 3mo ago
But if they made the minimum wage $1m/year then we would all be rich! /s
- inigyou 3mo ago
  I know on Reddit this sort of thing earns you karma but it doesn't work like that on HN.
  - gadders 3mo ago
    I don't go on Reddit, but you seem to still have people on here who are hard of thinking and believe that increasing the minimum wage has no second or third order effects.
    - inigyou 3mo ago
      "oh you think drinking water is good? why don't you just drown at the bottom of the ocean?" is a 100% reddit-tier comment.
      - gadders 3mo ago
        "Reductio ad absurdum (Latin for "reduction to absurdity") is a valid argumentative technique that disproves a statement by demonstrating that its logical conclusion leads to an absurd, impossible, or contradictory result."
        inigyou 3mo ago
        The logical conclusion of "drink more water" is not "drink infinite water until you drown" and the logical conclusion of "make minimum wage $15" is not "make minimum wage $100000000"
        gadders 3mo ago
        The counter argument of "If we put minimum wage up, everyone will be richer" is "What happens if we massively increase it?"
deleted 3mo ago
[deleted]
Ekaros 3mo ago
On other hand if you can not afford to pay your employees wages they can survive on you do not deserve to be in business. You should go out and any resources you use should instead be used in way that can reasonably sustain workers.
- gadders 3mo ago
  As much as I think you can't raise minimum wage indefinitely, I kind of agree with this a bit as well. I would be in favour of some sort of mechanism that ties "Number of your employees needing additional benefits to survive" (Universal Credit in the UK) to "How much in profits you can give to shareholders". Even an annually published official list of "inadequately paying companies" would be something.
- eudamoniac 3mo ago
  Ok great. I will stop deserving to be in business, my employees will all lose their jobs and then likely their homes, and this is considered A Good Thing. And no, they won't just go get a higher paying job because if their labor was worth that they'd have done that already.
- charcircuit 3mo ago
  It is not employer's responsibility to subsidize their employees poor financial decisions. It's people's own responsibility to live within their means and find higher paying jobs. It's not an employers fault that someone working part time 1 hour a week can't afford the rent on their $10k a month apartment.

frotaur 3mo ago

Check out https://arindube.substack.com/p/a-minimum-wage-natural-experiment https://arindube.substack.com/p/a-minimum-wage-natural-exper..., very good post comparing states with minimum wage and without, that seem to go against this often repeated argument.

logicchains 3mo ago
Then why not raise minimum wage to $100? Obviously there's a limit.
- inigyou 3mo ago
  "we should make murder illegal" "then why not make sleeping illegal? obviously there's a limit"
charcircuit 3mo ago
There is bias in which states increased minimum wage or not. It's like attributing the massive tech salaries in Silicon Valley vs Maine because minimum wage exists.

thatwasunusual 3mo ago

> You can't just raise minimum wage and expect people to make more money since businesses need to fire everyone who aren't worth the new minimum wage [...] This way of thinking is what's wrong with USA (among many other things). You don't (or at least shouldn't) hire lots of people because it's cheap.

cyberjerkXX 3mo ago
It's a voluntary agreement between people. It's not immoral to pay minimum wage to someone when they both agree. I find it to be immoral for the government to force themselves into the agreement. Only ~1% of people in the US make federal minimum wage. ~58% of that 1% are serving related occupations who collect tips that are not counted in BLS wage data. You need to use median wage - which is ~$24 for all occupations.
freedomben 3mo ago
If that way of thinking is wrong, why not just make the minimum wage a million an hour and let everyone be mega wealthy? What do you think would happen if we passed that? Edit: to the down voters, what is your answer to the question?
- tstrimple 3mo ago
  > “Oh water is healthy for you? Why don’t you drink a hundred gallons a day? Checkmate atheists!” Brilliant argument you have there.
  - freedomben 3mo ago
    You didn't answer the question. I suspect that is because basic economics kicks in and you quickly realize that you can't just raise the minimum wage as high as you want and expect it to work. It is a complicated and complex and highly nuanced thing. Your water example actually reinforces my point. If GP ignores the reality around drinking too much water, they will poison themselves, just like ignoring the reality around minimum wage would destroy things.
    - tstrimple 3mo ago
      Because the question is stupid on its face. If thing X is good, 1000x X must be good too is such a stupid fucking mentality. It doesn't apply to literally anything. Vitamin C is good. Too much is toxic. Sun exposure is good. Too much is toxic. Drinking water is good. Too much is toxic. Such a basic fucking concept that exists across basically everything in our society. Yet here you are stating that because a higher minimum wage is good, it must be more good to make the minimum wage "a million an hour" too right? Which doesn't follow at all based on literally any other example of things that are "good". It's mind-numbingly stupid. It's a ridiculous straw-man made by someone either disingenuous or ignorant.

gadders 3mo ago

But if they made the minimum wage $1m/year then we would all be rich! /s

inigyou 3mo ago
I know on Reddit this sort of thing earns you karma but it doesn't work like that on HN.
- gadders 3mo ago
  I don't go on Reddit, but you seem to still have people on here who are hard of thinking and believe that increasing the minimum wage has no second or third order effects.
  - inigyou 3mo ago
    "oh you think drinking water is good? why don't you just drown at the bottom of the ocean?" is a 100% reddit-tier comment.
    - gadders 3mo ago
      "Reductio ad absurdum (Latin for "reduction to absurdity") is a valid argumentative technique that disproves a statement by demonstrating that its logical conclusion leads to an absurd, impossible, or contradictory result."
      - inigyou 3mo ago
        The logical conclusion of "drink more water" is not "drink infinite water until you drown" and the logical conclusion of "make minimum wage $15" is not "make minimum wage $100000000"
        gadders 3mo ago
        The counter argument of "If we put minimum wage up, everyone will be richer" is "What happens if we massively increase it?"

deleted 3mo ago

[deleted]

Ekaros 3mo ago

On other hand if you can not afford to pay your employees wages they can survive on you do not deserve to be in business. You should go out and any resources you use should instead be used in way that can reasonably sustain workers.

gadders 3mo ago
As much as I think you can't raise minimum wage indefinitely, I kind of agree with this a bit as well. I would be in favour of some sort of mechanism that ties "Number of your employees needing additional benefits to survive" (Universal Credit in the UK) to "How much in profits you can give to shareholders". Even an annually published official list of "inadequately paying companies" would be something.
eudamoniac 3mo ago
Ok great. I will stop deserving to be in business, my employees will all lose their jobs and then likely their homes, and this is considered A Good Thing. And no, they won't just go get a higher paying job because if their labor was worth that they'd have done that already.
charcircuit 3mo ago
It is not employer's responsibility to subsidize their employees poor financial decisions. It's people's own responsibility to live within their means and find higher paying jobs. It's not an employers fault that someone working part time 1 hour a week can't afford the rent on their $10k a month apartment.