4 ms·

You know, as a European who used to live in China I have to say that those 'Made in the USA' slogans are really off-putting for me. To me it almost reads like

You know, as a European who used to live in China I have to say that those 'Made in the USA' slogans are really off-putting for me. To me it almost reads like 'More expensive because we're jingoists'. Whatever happened to globalization? Has it become hip to be 'protectionist' now the economy isn't doing so well? This really does bug me because the companies that use the 'Made in the USA' tagline otherwise tend to be cool (it's all over Kickstarter).

DeepDuh 14y ago
I think you're missing the point. Domestic production is very important if we want to keep our living standards while accounting for the ecological costs of our consumerism. 'Made in the USA' is just a label to sell American consumers on, but the reasonings are deeper than jingoism. Sooner or later our greenhouse gas output is going to bite us in the ass and for that we need new solutions. For the Chinese economy I'm not concerned, since they're growing into a huge domestic market themselves. Luckily they also seem to understand the ecological dangers, thus they're beginning to invest quite heavily in clean energy. P.S. I'm European. I have much more hope for the USA to turn around their economy however. Long term Europe is in a much tougher position to compete in the new global economy, mostly because we have no silicon valley and we have hardly any top tier universities that churn out massive amounts of startups. On the other hand what's very worrysome about the US are the exploding cost for academic degrees - that's gonna hurt really soon when a whole generation of high potential people (a) aren't able to get a degree or (b) get a degree but can't spend any money on consumer products because of their loans. However - this as well as medical care is fixable in mid term. Not having a culture of innovation is much tougher.
- yummyfajitas 14y ago
  ...but the reasonings are deeper than jingoism. Could you explain the reasoning? Your post is very unclear unclear what greenhouse gas output has to do with American manufacturing.
  - DeepDuh 14y ago
    When big consumer brands launch a new mobile product they often book all the available air cargo space they can. Chinese manufacturing has lead to an explosion of air as well as ship cargo, thus adding tons of CO2 cost to your products. That's were domestic manufacturing would safe you.
    - yummyfajitas 14y ago
      I seriously doubt the CO2 emissions of shipping an iPhone are remotely significant. In fact, I'd bet at even odds that driving a car to the Apple store emits more CO2 than shipping the iPhone from China.
- DigitalTurk 14y ago
  I couldn't agree more with your post scriptum! The ecology argument makes sense, of course, insofar more of the sales are in the US than Asia. Nonetheless, it seems to me that it's usually more of a convenient side-effect than the actual motivation. But thanks for your perspective. Some of the Kickstarter project take manufacturing to an extremely local level. In the project description it will say that their costs are higher because the designers want everything to be manufactured in their hipster town. I feel really uneasy about such sentiments. (And mind you, people call me a hipster all the time.) As for the Chinese economy, I try to be optimistic. However… The housing market seems really unhealthy. You'll pay more for an apartment in a not-that-great neighborhood in Beijing than for one in an awesome neighborhood in the capital of many European cities. Meanwhile, the quality of the Beijing apartment will leave much to be desired and the building is actually built on land that is merely leased from the government! Consumerism is crazy too. Did you know that on China's Single's Day (one of the many holidays in China invented by marketeers) sales were higher than on the US's Black Friday? Finally, the Chinese definitely don't care about the environment. It's not in their mindset at all. Everyone wants to drive an SUV (while public transportation is dirt-cheap), the amount of plastic packaging they use is insane, the only recycling is done by homeless people who collect plastic bottles from trash cans, etcetera.
rsheridan6 14y ago
USA-made goods have a reputation for better quality than China-made goods. Not as much in the tech world, where top-of-the-line iWhatever is made in China, but, for example, in the world of mechanics and tradesmen, Chinese goods = Harbor Freight, cheap but low quality, while American goods are pricier but probably good enough to do the job.
- newbie12 14y ago
  Not just better quality, but an honest product. Waves of toxic toys, rotting drywall, and deadly dog food from China have seriously damaged the Chinese brand in the US.
- DigitalTurk 14y ago
  I understand that China has those problems you mention, but as you say, they don't apply to tech products that much. Does anyone really want to buy 'Made in the USA' products because they're afraid their Macbook or expensive designer clock is going to fall apart if it's made in China? Thanks for your input. I find it very interesting that so far no one has said that it's about protecting national interests and that they're all for that!
  - rsheridan6 14y ago
    Everybody knows what they're getting when they buy a Macbook, but not every product is familiar as a Macbook, and not every brand is as concerned with protecting their reputation as Apple. The existence of Chinese-made Macbooks proves that the Chinese are capable of making good products, but it doesn't prove that they habitually do so. With a lot of products, you're not going to find many reviews online, and even if you do, you don't know if the product has changed since the reviewer purchased it (unlike the situation with Macbook, where we read about it on HN every time there's a refresh). Here's an extremely long thread at a website for toolheads that attempts to address this issue by reviewing harbor freight tools (mostly cheap no-name Chinese imports), but it's a long way from solved. The sheer size of this thread gives you an idea of how many people face the dilemma of buying cheap, risky products or expensive safe products. http://garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27192 http://garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27192 Often, you're forced to rely on the reputation of the country of origin or the brand (and the good brands are mostly American, European or Japanese). That said, I have bought some Chinese made no-name products that turned out to be perfectly good for a much lower price than their USA-made counterparts.
alanctgardner2 14y ago
It's a double-edged sword: global labour arbitrage has resulted in massive increases in quality of life for the average Chinese, but people look at the QOL in China and think, "I'm facilitating slavery by buying foreign goods". What these people really want, in an ideal world, is for there to be no inequality between various national markets. This is happening slowly, but like any inequality, it will gradually even out over time. Businesses look at both halves of that problem and see a) we have to pay more to manufacture things in China, and the cost is going up b) people don't want to buy things made in China, even though the price is going up, because they still sense inequality and so they tentatively start bringing some production back. This trend will likely speed up ( especially, as this article says, for large goods that are more expensive to ship and easier to assemble ) as Chinese wages rise.
mc32 14y ago
I dunno. I see 'Made in Europe' becoming more prevalent in products mfgd in Europe. I don't feel off-put by that. So, I think it's more your personal reaction. Mfgs mfg where they do because it's advantageous, one way or another. They very rarely do it for political reasons; overwhelmingly it's due to economic/strategic reasons, AFAIK. W/re Kickstarter, I wonder if there's any bleeding effect from the 'consume local' food movement to the durable goods sphere. Maybe it's just coincidence, altho there seem be some parallels.

DeepDuh 14y ago

I think you're missing the point. Domestic production is very important if we want to keep our living standards while accounting for the ecological costs of our consumerism. 'Made in the USA' is just a label to sell American consumers on, but the reasonings are deeper than jingoism. Sooner or later our greenhouse gas output is going to bite us in the ass and for that we need new solutions. For the Chinese economy I'm not concerned, since they're growing into a huge domestic market themselves. Luckily they also seem to understand the ecological dangers, thus they're beginning to invest quite heavily in clean energy. P.S. I'm European. I have much more hope for the USA to turn around their economy however. Long term Europe is in a much tougher position to compete in the new global economy, mostly because we have no silicon valley and we have hardly any top tier universities that churn out massive amounts of startups. On the other hand what's very worrysome about the US are the exploding cost for academic degrees - that's gonna hurt really soon when a whole generation of high potential people (a) aren't able to get a degree or (b) get a degree but can't spend any money on consumer products because of their loans. However - this as well as medical care is fixable in mid term. Not having a culture of innovation is much tougher.

yummyfajitas 14y ago
...but the reasonings are deeper than jingoism. Could you explain the reasoning? Your post is very unclear unclear what greenhouse gas output has to do with American manufacturing.
- DeepDuh 14y ago
  When big consumer brands launch a new mobile product they often book all the available air cargo space they can. Chinese manufacturing has lead to an explosion of air as well as ship cargo, thus adding tons of CO2 cost to your products. That's were domestic manufacturing would safe you.
  - yummyfajitas 14y ago
    I seriously doubt the CO2 emissions of shipping an iPhone are remotely significant. In fact, I'd bet at even odds that driving a car to the Apple store emits more CO2 than shipping the iPhone from China.
DigitalTurk 14y ago
I couldn't agree more with your post scriptum! The ecology argument makes sense, of course, insofar more of the sales are in the US than Asia. Nonetheless, it seems to me that it's usually more of a convenient side-effect than the actual motivation. But thanks for your perspective. Some of the Kickstarter project take manufacturing to an extremely local level. In the project description it will say that their costs are higher because the designers want everything to be manufactured in their hipster town. I feel really uneasy about such sentiments. (And mind you, people call me a hipster all the time.) As for the Chinese economy, I try to be optimistic. However… The housing market seems really unhealthy. You'll pay more for an apartment in a not-that-great neighborhood in Beijing than for one in an awesome neighborhood in the capital of many European cities. Meanwhile, the quality of the Beijing apartment will leave much to be desired and the building is actually built on land that is merely leased from the government! Consumerism is crazy too. Did you know that on China's Single's Day (one of the many holidays in China invented by marketeers) sales were higher than on the US's Black Friday? Finally, the Chinese definitely don't care about the environment. It's not in their mindset at all. Everyone wants to drive an SUV (while public transportation is dirt-cheap), the amount of plastic packaging they use is insane, the only recycling is done by homeless people who collect plastic bottles from trash cans, etcetera.

rsheridan6 14y ago

USA-made goods have a reputation for better quality than China-made goods. Not as much in the tech world, where top-of-the-line iWhatever is made in China, but, for example, in the world of mechanics and tradesmen, Chinese goods = Harbor Freight, cheap but low quality, while American goods are pricier but probably good enough to do the job.

newbie12 14y ago
Not just better quality, but an honest product. Waves of toxic toys, rotting drywall, and deadly dog food from China have seriously damaged the Chinese brand in the US.
DigitalTurk 14y ago
I understand that China has those problems you mention, but as you say, they don't apply to tech products that much. Does anyone really want to buy 'Made in the USA' products because they're afraid their Macbook or expensive designer clock is going to fall apart if it's made in China? Thanks for your input. I find it very interesting that so far no one has said that it's about protecting national interests and that they're all for that!
- rsheridan6 14y ago
  Everybody knows what they're getting when they buy a Macbook, but not every product is familiar as a Macbook, and not every brand is as concerned with protecting their reputation as Apple. The existence of Chinese-made Macbooks proves that the Chinese are capable of making good products, but it doesn't prove that they habitually do so. With a lot of products, you're not going to find many reviews online, and even if you do, you don't know if the product has changed since the reviewer purchased it (unlike the situation with Macbook, where we read about it on HN every time there's a refresh). Here's an extremely long thread at a website for toolheads that attempts to address this issue by reviewing harbor freight tools (mostly cheap no-name Chinese imports), but it's a long way from solved. The sheer size of this thread gives you an idea of how many people face the dilemma of buying cheap, risky products or expensive safe products. http://garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27192 http://garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27192 Often, you're forced to rely on the reputation of the country of origin or the brand (and the good brands are mostly American, European or Japanese). That said, I have bought some Chinese made no-name products that turned out to be perfectly good for a much lower price than their USA-made counterparts.

alanctgardner2 14y ago

It's a double-edged sword: global labour arbitrage has resulted in massive increases in quality of life for the average Chinese, but people look at the QOL in China and think, "I'm facilitating slavery by buying foreign goods". What these people really want, in an ideal world, is for there to be no inequality between various national markets. This is happening slowly, but like any inequality, it will gradually even out over time. Businesses look at both halves of that problem and see a) we have to pay more to manufacture things in China, and the cost is going up b) people don't want to buy things made in China, even though the price is going up, because they still sense inequality and so they tentatively start bringing some production back. This trend will likely speed up ( especially, as this article says, for large goods that are more expensive to ship and easier to assemble ) as Chinese wages rise.

mc32 14y ago

I dunno. I see 'Made in Europe' becoming more prevalent in products mfgd in Europe. I don't feel off-put by that. So, I think it's more your personal reaction. Mfgs mfg where they do because it's advantageous, one way or another. They very rarely do it for political reasons; overwhelmingly it's due to economic/strategic reasons, AFAIK. W/re Kickstarter, I wonder if there's any bleeding effect from the 'consume local' food movement to the durable goods sphere. Maybe it's just coincidence, altho there seem be some parallels.