3 ms·

You are talking about access to resources and technologies, which is basically constantly rising, we couldn't stop that if we wanted to, so that's a given and m

You are talking about access to resources and technologies, which is basically constantly rising, we couldn't stop that if we wanted to, so that's a given and more importantly orthogonal to the wealth that buys you goods and services. The latter is absolutely zero sum, because of everybody has a billion, a billion isn't that much any more. E.g. human trafficking exists because some people are rich and others are poor, and the fact that even those poor people might have access to things an emperor 1000 years ago would have dreamed of doesn't change that, because the people who treat them like slaves have even more. It's all about the relative difference between people who are alive today, the absolute increase compared to people who lived N years ago is a red herring.

SamPatt 3mo ago
>You are talking about access to resources and technologies, which is basically constantly rising, we couldn't stop that if we wanted to We could very obviously stop our progress in resources and technology. It has happened throughout history many times and we see plenty of modern examples. You seem to be treating the accumulated products of civilization as though they are geological facts rather than fragile outputs of maintained institutions. Maybe you should ask yourself why you believe that 1) access to resources and technology are "basically constantly rising" and 2) why the relative difference in wealth today is more important than the (magical?) existence of a system were everyone has continually gotten more access to resources and technology.
- customguy 3mo ago
  > Maybe you should ask yourself why you believe that 1) access to resources and technology are "basically constantly rising" Because people have and share ideas, and I was using that as a shorthand. Even if they aren't, if you completely strike that part -- my point remains completely untouched. > why the relative difference in wealth today is more important than the (magical?) existence of a system were everyone has continually gotten more access to resources and technology Because in the context of "Wealth is having economic power over the people around you.", that is the definition of wealth that is used. To quote a randomly picked one, emphasis mine: "Large possessions; a comparative abundance of things" > You are aware that the default state of humanity hasn't been one of continually increasing access to resources and technology? There was no default "state", at least by the time you're talking about humans, we probably already learned from each other by observation. Sure, politics and wars and religion and feudal dynasties and whatever make bumps in the line, but generally it goes up. Once things get out, they're out, roughly speaking (that's the keyword here), and even in the animal kingdom. And as I said, even if that's completely false, doesn't matter for the wider point about wealth, and that it can only buy you power over others if they have less of it.
  - SamPatt 3mo ago
    >There was no default "state", at least by the time you're talking about humans, we probably already learned from each other by observation. Sure, politics and wars and religion and feudal dynasties and whatever make bumps in the line, but generally it goes up. No, that's not the shape of the line. You can view it here: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/global-average-gdp-per-capita-over-the-long-run https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/global-average-gdp-per-ca... The hockey stick upturn in recent centuries needs explanation. I'm pushing back so hard on this comparative definition of wealth (which I notice is the secondary definition you found behind large possessions) because I think it's silly to do that when we have an unbelievably dramatic increase in wealth in recent centuries which needs understanding first. Hand-waving away human progress and forcing zero sum definitions of wealth feels unserious. You have terms for things like inequality, why not use those instead of distorting what wealth means?
    - confidantlake 3mo ago
      That is an entirely unserious graph.
      - SamPatt 3mo ago
        In a sense I agree, since GDP is a bit of a silly metric. But it's a decent enough proxy for the parts of human progress that I think are meaningful that it illustrates the point well. That website is an excellent resource and you can find other more compelling charts there.
    - customguy 3mo ago
      > The hockey stick upturn in recent centuries needs explanation. Why? It goes up. As I said. > I think it's silly to do that when we have an unbelievably dramatic increase in wealth in recent centuries which needs understanding first. That's not pushing back, that's wanting to talk about something else first. That's just not something I'm interested in. > distorting what wealth means? It simply means both things, from context it was obvious how it was used in this instance, you ignoring that and going on tells me explaining it yet another time won't help.
rmunn 3mo ago
> ... human trafficking exists because some people are rich and others are poor ... No, it doesn't. This is an absurd claim, and nobody intelligent should take it seriously. Human trafficking exists because some people choose to do evil things. There are plenty of relatively-rich people who are actively trying to stop the evil of human trafficking. Furthermore, just being wealthy has not, historically, made you immune to being made a slave. For just one example, look at the story of Joseph in the Bible. He was his father's favorite son, the heir presumptive to fantastic wealth for his time (that "coat of many colors" his father gave him cost the equivalent of what a sports car would today), and yet his brothers who hated him sold him into slavery while his father wasn't around to protect him. Throughout history, cross-border slave raiding has been a thing, too: it didn't matter how much gold you had tucked under your bed if the Vikings (or whoever) caught you alone, or outnumbered and overpowered your hired guards: once they hauled you away and slapped chains on you, you no longer had access to your wealth, and your life depended on making your captors happy with your work. To think that slavery, ancient or modern, is caused by relative wealth differentials reveals an abysmal ignorance of both history and human nature.
- customguy 3mo ago
  > To think that slavery, ancient or modern, is caused by relative wealth differentials reveals an abysmal ignorance of both history and human nature. I claimed no such thing, you read way too much into your missing the point. > if the Vikings (or whoever) caught you alone, or outnumbered and overpowered your hired guards Wait, I thought it was just because "some people do evil things", nothing to do with relative power?
  - rmunn 3mo ago
    I'm deliberately giving an illustration that shows that relative power throughout most of history had to do with physical strength and weapons, rather than money. And if you didn't mean that slavery is caused by relative wealth differentials, then saying "... the people who treat them like slaves have even more. It's all about the relative difference between people who are alive today ..." was a very poor way of making your point. So what was your point that I missed, then?

SamPatt 3mo ago

>You are talking about access to resources and technologies, which is basically constantly rising, we couldn't stop that if we wanted to We could very obviously stop our progress in resources and technology. It has happened throughout history many times and we see plenty of modern examples. You seem to be treating the accumulated products of civilization as though they are geological facts rather than fragile outputs of maintained institutions. Maybe you should ask yourself why you believe that 1) access to resources and technology are "basically constantly rising" and 2) why the relative difference in wealth today is more important than the (magical?) existence of a system were everyone has continually gotten more access to resources and technology.

customguy 3mo ago
> Maybe you should ask yourself why you believe that 1) access to resources and technology are "basically constantly rising" Because people have and share ideas, and I was using that as a shorthand. Even if they aren't, if you completely strike that part -- my point remains completely untouched. > why the relative difference in wealth today is more important than the (magical?) existence of a system were everyone has continually gotten more access to resources and technology Because in the context of "Wealth is having economic power over the people around you.", that is the definition of wealth that is used. To quote a randomly picked one, emphasis mine: "Large possessions; a comparative abundance of things" > You are aware that the default state of humanity hasn't been one of continually increasing access to resources and technology? There was no default "state", at least by the time you're talking about humans, we probably already learned from each other by observation. Sure, politics and wars and religion and feudal dynasties and whatever make bumps in the line, but generally it goes up. Once things get out, they're out, roughly speaking (that's the keyword here), and even in the animal kingdom. And as I said, even if that's completely false, doesn't matter for the wider point about wealth, and that it can only buy you power over others if they have less of it.
- SamPatt 3mo ago
  >There was no default "state", at least by the time you're talking about humans, we probably already learned from each other by observation. Sure, politics and wars and religion and feudal dynasties and whatever make bumps in the line, but generally it goes up. No, that's not the shape of the line. You can view it here: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/global-average-gdp-per-capita-over-the-long-run https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/global-average-gdp-per-ca... The hockey stick upturn in recent centuries needs explanation. I'm pushing back so hard on this comparative definition of wealth (which I notice is the secondary definition you found behind large possessions) because I think it's silly to do that when we have an unbelievably dramatic increase in wealth in recent centuries which needs understanding first. Hand-waving away human progress and forcing zero sum definitions of wealth feels unserious. You have terms for things like inequality, why not use those instead of distorting what wealth means?
  - confidantlake 3mo ago
    That is an entirely unserious graph.
    - SamPatt 3mo ago
      In a sense I agree, since GDP is a bit of a silly metric. But it's a decent enough proxy for the parts of human progress that I think are meaningful that it illustrates the point well. That website is an excellent resource and you can find other more compelling charts there.
  - customguy 3mo ago
    > The hockey stick upturn in recent centuries needs explanation. Why? It goes up. As I said. > I think it's silly to do that when we have an unbelievably dramatic increase in wealth in recent centuries which needs understanding first. That's not pushing back, that's wanting to talk about something else first. That's just not something I'm interested in. > distorting what wealth means? It simply means both things, from context it was obvious how it was used in this instance, you ignoring that and going on tells me explaining it yet another time won't help.

rmunn 3mo ago

> ... human trafficking exists because some people are rich and others are poor ... No, it doesn't. This is an absurd claim, and nobody intelligent should take it seriously. Human trafficking exists because some people choose to do evil things. There are plenty of relatively-rich people who are actively trying to stop the evil of human trafficking. Furthermore, just being wealthy has not, historically, made you immune to being made a slave. For just one example, look at the story of Joseph in the Bible. He was his father's favorite son, the heir presumptive to fantastic wealth for his time (that "coat of many colors" his father gave him cost the equivalent of what a sports car would today), and yet his brothers who hated him sold him into slavery while his father wasn't around to protect him. Throughout history, cross-border slave raiding has been a thing, too: it didn't matter how much gold you had tucked under your bed if the Vikings (or whoever) caught you alone, or outnumbered and overpowered your hired guards: once they hauled you away and slapped chains on you, you no longer had access to your wealth, and your life depended on making your captors happy with your work. To think that slavery, ancient or modern, is caused by relative wealth differentials reveals an abysmal ignorance of both history and human nature.

customguy 3mo ago
> To think that slavery, ancient or modern, is caused by relative wealth differentials reveals an abysmal ignorance of both history and human nature. I claimed no such thing, you read way too much into your missing the point. > if the Vikings (or whoever) caught you alone, or outnumbered and overpowered your hired guards Wait, I thought it was just because "some people do evil things", nothing to do with relative power?
- rmunn 3mo ago
  I'm deliberately giving an illustration that shows that relative power throughout most of history had to do with physical strength and weapons, rather than money. And if you didn't mean that slavery is caused by relative wealth differentials, then saying "... the people who treat them like slaves have even more. It's all about the relative difference between people who are alive today ..." was a very poor way of making your point. So what was your point that I missed, then?