4 ms·

We have been from about your 2nd comment on. Nope, if you think forming beliefs from youtubers is so negative, don't do it. It's one of the topics, one of the

We have been from about your 2nd comment on. Nope, if you think forming beliefs from youtubers is so negative, don't do it. It's one of the topics, one of the manifestations of the systemic issues I was talking about, if you had paid any sort of attention. Nope, destructors have nothing to do with this and this was never something you mentioned before. If it was you could show it with godbolt. You are still not understanding? I gathered you seem to be a game developer of some sorts but you don't understand the simplest basic facts about C++? Show me. They are just functions, usually one or two lines. Please show me how you can call a destructor in C++ without seeing the declaration of the destructor. You have declarations of functions the same as in C, did you try this? JUST DO IT. SHOW THE EVIDENCE. DONT TALK. Show me what you're talking about in godbolt.

jstimpfle 3mo ago
> Nope, destructors have nothing to do with this and this was never something you mentioned before. If it was you could show it with godbolt. How about you simply Ctrl+F for "build time" or "compile time" and admit you have been lying, have been extremely adversarial, and have been incredibly lazy? > Show me. They are just functions, usually one or two lines. Isn't it strange that I'm now creating a godbolt containing absolute C++ basics as a youtuber personality fangirl, since apparently I'm only repeating stuff I don't understand, which has to be why I can't express myself and provide evidence? It is beyond me how you don't seem to know what I'm talking about, but here you go... This should provide reasonable evidence of the lack of ergonomics when using C++, and how problematic this class stuff is from various technical standpoints. As you mentioned, in C style programming, we could instead simply forward declare a struct, than forward declare some functions. One line for each. Good header hygiene. Clean. Done. But noo, this is C++ and we can't have straightforward code and low coupling. Full link: https://godbolt.org/#z:OYLghAFBqd5QCxAYwPYBMCmBRdBLAF1QCcAaPECAMzwBtMA7AQwFtMQByARg9KtQYEAysib0QXACx8BBAKoBnTAAUAHpwAMvAFYTStJg1DIApACYAQuYukl9ZATwDKjdAGFUtAK4sGe1wAyeAyYAHI%2BAEaYxCAAzKQADqgKhE4MHt6%2BekkpjgJBIeEsUTHxdpgOaUIETMQEGT5%2BXLaY9nkM1bUEBWGR0XG2NXUNWc0KQ93BvcX9sQCUtqhexMjsHAD06wDUAGJ07Fv8qAB0CCYaAIKbW8HI3ljoWxEAnltoDAo%2B0QpbXilGW3MsVu90wgNibiOpxMsWw5wu8LuTAUPx2qFQMIsWy21ywSOITHaW1QVF26K2EAYqAIWyYWywNAYqQEc3hbLMwNJGmxuNQmAUDDAHBpaBYCX2IDeCEMwDBRC2XC28oAbtE8FRnmzLsrUHhHuhUAB9I6G8ZeKhUCBo1AgEAWWpbABUEVqc2xOO21tt9uI9L5AqFItQYolWxC40wj3GxC8Di2LD%2BNKiWwA1lSAO4MUhbYiYACOXjwuZ%2BSwI0TeBhRStQTzBDKm6DZAHYrJd3WSa46juCACJhzDpjsQZpbMzZl3EVmxLEev38wXCt7B8XiJcfAgxhwkeOJ2upjNZrbphB4ZAIHP5wvFivIn7y5P1kKNtvuo4AWhhuFQABUT0YFBAU4zry86BkuIarqItC0MEwC0vGmAEAgGAXgWRb8jcNL3mCaaoJm2bHqe565mh15IlW2H0pgjKRvC7ZYPQZaHOimI8tsBqgYuoorgcUEwQCWDRrGRC%2BiRV4YYQ1Z7rh%2BFHieZ6oeJPzkXeNYPtRDbNj2WoIhyrjqjp1wAJIMFsbjWNYR5gtKqpSYaj6YIa8EqTcplIdZmBMFgvrbpJ6Z0LQYbUheYi0JqlzXMmfxMBE9DHPC1zfjWmCqqZDnOZWCgEdZTC2fKIJeFgtLQUqCBgsEZbEMwgVYAkriMMgeD8qQCXbIY%2BqYHVDBYAwjUYSSVFdT1fUKK1pWErSuaKehjxRPwU3pmCoimSljBUTRpVLZl2YFfgAkVAYBLtGNA2YT8NCtOgPztQhSEYD8EC7bBa5CVuvo3YJG7CSQczxRF2y/ngPxA1sCTEKgsWYCwhKnrWoh/OVpKGM8SHPWeMoYfwpXJHWnX1b1TVZWNoWbb8ChMLKS5FdKql7rm3H7Ogf1XNsQK7WCMKQui9mdVw0KwmNbO9aC4Jc0atVmPzcL/bS3VbAoNYCMcys6S51psetwTMqZA3Ws2rYXAkXixaeIB0e6r00j6rGzuGZZRl9cZ4odMMCOb2Lu/LNSOMgWw%2Bk60Mpo5E6AZinvjDDvs6nqVHRqgzyGiH/vOq6YeXJ71xyAw80EF4zBlmFVm0sATDBFsNlyjWYOoMqepymVWw84y2uGhn2zqkX6aGFhNYI37Dr%2BUhWwAEoXEZRk4r8TIFo5CQbhSShgtDwSAbWtB4b9bdbL%2B0TlddR5MK88p93neAz4ac%2B%2BoP54Rz7VGMdEW8QKf5%2BX/LdWNTQvvAOi%2BCYG6EQvBYWlDSLurwQZECrqXbOXhArHyUFvG6kkOIBkXKtFaMEiruUOHnSoAhQbzwuDsMeABpZm7ZrhCDUoQeuYJAHQUQtmCm0CtgwXGKTbiD9XKVWqiWUk2CVJbzKrmcOjsrYOhMC2bhWxVDZmeNmAAXqxSR2lpw6Qoe3HWxBvJSRPFghuj5tbElJD6bK5dcqV3jEwIO8Fb6wzYHdJmW9Qh4XGgQIUPxtC7hgjYtwFJCIKXTEsWgs1aE5jwMABAwDYJukwKoVYc83HxhIGCBQzxBBMEqKYF8GsIi6noMQBIBgmIgzEjNZmnto76h/H%2BYAAEgIa2drUV2Oska3WQugbMy1iQMELkwBIdUHTIlBl0YxHYPE3irIY466cclDgqjInaggtjyP7r6FOk4ba4gOs0okA13iWxIF0wwPS%2BkDM8u9H4CRRm63RBMly0y0iewAH7WlDtORpOyjppDGZ9TcIljk616a8fpgzLkjLqGM609zMqayZDMhElwwZ4GVISdgW914ED4dw6IvDsxmgtEkhQyFYHoAXEmcqbkG5lS8uWQBFL4ZKDGeZSwlkQY0yklEch7pjJIwYCjWpUoMY/GEZgJhJUDlfB8vw6lnkdEV05WCemy5GZb3QdjLwkTNqvGJcEslYEFXYW5diS2/cFGAhbJ7dsCzZErMUWnC47YVEOo0ckqaFVcViAUMrCpTZVEG0Mp6UMUJkADMFhydmosoQIDDQLWZFwql%2BmNNzAllovR2gdBs1k6dLVzPVl2ckMI%2BwhEHG8kcY4nipw%2BbObpGYyZLQEIc4gnt3yfgNIDf87zgLbFra4vunsGKITBEcB1zr43GTFIFAadjfaB2DrUVeDiOnZj0T1VyKQip4EnVDRg3sfk0HoPCdNyd01zsTgu7NCJc2OvdLmXOVV%2BylvRN6Woo6/WBq2EZSdo1tS6keOm9ttT6kWqxOsR0WwfVOlZu%2By46a3k2qWTSVZycJxukkaB8DkHHTQe0rB59IBXnolXuhnEmHlZQYtbhxF1Hrh7FXMvBgxxQ0JHDcCYWhUOYQmjbG6Wuk2N3A46LNgLASCajjTR7YdbUbXQlSq%2BgWUnhAM2lNWoDaIJyi3bjIaDVCY9NYdSbFW6ik7oyUSLANQ6DerGkZPlrwBruSZejIwzVSog2/HIcxtNkzKvU04y4CyGOhxzQbV1ihnqj3HtNa8TctbtCcgNf26q7qavPFQcGLB4JljPEyKCstnw3o1rUM8NCHDLFSTUbqSQKpmN1aS8l%2B5XEiamkhE5Xj2HYJ5viFphpjWzgsEpllVhLA3FQTSYAuYJqit60wIBNYjgTl7F7dAtoX5eFnhuTmx7X2witPhs9Ic5hAQHUaE0qbqDognMcWUBBAINNnIyUKrwcgpEhop0BYJMmkUjPBTFvy8bdR0xhPOOc85orCr1u9yxTIaBdTyz0%2BGfS2meT6Ve/kSrJj4t90VW8XhLZW9PNbF8NsQi2822ESPVvrbJ24Unn4gtXp7BwBYtBOAAFZeB%2BA4FoUgNoOCDcsgrZYqxAQch4KQAgmgmcLBTCAVnTZjhcDMFwAAbMrrgTYlcaGVwADjMKz/QnBJC8BYCAZXGhjhNm15IAAnE2SQkhles4d02Lg8ROfc957wBQIANDi8lwsOAsAYCIBQHJ6I5BKAMwKSAYAKvmgHsqt7iAERJekAiMEWozxOBi/T8wYgzwADyERtAVAl1z3goo2CCAL8C1PWBAHADcKFb33BeBYGhkYcQ5fSD4Hpo4VULfudxIqEAtY3OPUs%2B7zBCIBJ88eCwKnjcW7s%2B8FVMQPJSgexQxlPxUA5eFhUAMHUgAak1dMBeuor5kIIEQYh2BSGv/IJQahU%2B6GaAYIwKALKWH0HgCI3vYBmA2AQAEgBUBBSA19OBYhXctBDsec540gW9eAa5ohiA64ADAIWg2g0gXBuoRgmhSBAgpgigShshkhtZ8CyDcg0gegSD%2BgxhWhS8qgJhKCGDsCBBOg6haC%2BgYgxgWDPBGg9AI4uDiCeCJAFhBcVh79mc2cOdU9ecZFtdlc3xldJAthgBkBfYVcFcKRcBCBtwgQuA5heAy9YCFgaVvJKBpdZdfdJ8jdSATcbdjhJBtdYgNBXczBrdYhrdJBYhtcmxSB3dkDOAvcfc/d99SBA8Q9SwjYCAI8IAo9ohQhWA1hVAlCVC1CNDfYIAvoGAUxjDCD8ARI9Q9B%2BAb8oJ79pAyin8VB1Bu839SB0wCQEgV8ZCOB2dAj5DOAC8gFYixk0jlDVD1DNCFRlcdCIAPB1NfRDCCjTCpdSALD%2BhMC7DjcbDjhWcVdrclCmwtcNBWc1c3cuiOBQjfc5i4CZdJBJZ/DXC/CzBLcvD1d9dJ9Yg5Du9PdwizCDcOAzBViuANBzd/jASgSgTDi3iQiPj5i18UhnBJAgA%3D https://godbolt.org/#z:OYLghAFBqd5QCxAYwPYBMCmBRdBLAF1QCcAaP...
- CyberDildonics 3mo ago
  How about you simply Ctrl+F for "build time" or "compile time" and admit you have been lying, have been extremely adversarial, and have been incredibly lazy? More insults but there is no difference here. I looked at your godbolt link, which part of this does C avoid? Is your whole argument here that you have to define a class' data even though you have to do the same thing in C? Is it your argument against an optional feature seriously that you can't use the PIMPL pattern from the 90s ? Holy mother of god, that's what is so important? Every struct and class definition you have ever written compiles in a fraction of a second on hardware from 15 years ago this makes no sense at all. It even took you an entire novel of "nu uh" and "this program was written in C so everything else is bad" to get there. What happened to all the toxic program destroying architecture effects? Now it boils down to something that is no different but without it all the same memory bugs persist.
  - jstimpfle 3mo ago
    > More insults but there is no difference here. Rebutting your wild and easily disproved claims where it's necessary. > I looked at your godbolt link, which part of this does C avoid? Should I spell it out again for you? With non-class programming, you can do struct Foo; struct Bar; Bar *bar_create(); void bar_destroy(Bar *bar); void foo_doThing(Foo *foo); Foo *foo_create(int x, int y, Bar *bar); void foo_destroy(Foo *foo); And that's literally the API, clean and readable. Now granted, it doesn't do RAII, but here's the essence of the API, in a form that you can actually improve and develop and refactor, and which doesn't require you to rebuild the world if you changed something in a remote corner of the codebase. This is super well known common lore, and if you haven't noticed this yourself and haven't heard many people talking about this, you simply don't know what you're talking about. > Every struct and class definition you have ever written compiles in a fraction of a second on hardware from 15 years ago this makes no sense at all. I'm not repeating once again how this requires you to include the world for the smallest thing which is extremely painful. > Is it your argument against an optional feature seriously that you can't use the PIMPL pattern from the 90s ? Holy mother of god, that's what is so important? Every struct and class definition you have ever written compiles in a fraction of a second on hardware from 15 years ago this makes no sense at all. It even took you an entire novel of "nu uh" and "this program was written in C so everything else is bad" to get there. This is not about single-build times (which are much more affected by by template metaprogramming), but about quadratic incremental rebuild scaling. And "in a fraction of a second" is a ridiculous argument when it's well known that C++ single build times are spectacularly bad and developers have to wait way too much for clean rebuilds too. You just don't get it. And no, you don't do PIMPL. It doesn't scale at all. It's realistic to PIMPL a plain struct once in a while, but NOT with C++ classes with methods etc on a regular basis. It's not ergonomic to do so, it requires even much more boilerplate to do the simplest thing, and it makes it incredibly hard to change and fix and evolve anything. Plus, PIMPL does add a runtime indirection btw. It's BAD. Again, I know what I'm talking down not because I'm repeating what "my heroes" said but because I've actually tried to make it work, many times. It doesn't work. And you're not doing PIMPL either. Want to know how I know? BECAUSE IT DOESN'T WORK AND YOU ARE JUST TALKING. > Now it boils down to something that is no different but without it all the same memory bugs persist. You can't be serious. Now you claim that's the only thing I said? No, I've said many other things. You're a loudmouth who doesn't understand the most basic thing, so we have to spend days before you accept the tiniest straightforward common sense argument that you could just google. Do you want to go down the next rabbit hole? Because I don't, I'm so done with you.

jstimpfle 3mo ago

> Nope, destructors have nothing to do with this and this was never something you mentioned before. If it was you could show it with godbolt. How about you simply Ctrl+F for "build time" or "compile time" and admit you have been lying, have been extremely adversarial, and have been incredibly lazy? > Show me. They are just functions, usually one or two lines. Isn't it strange that I'm now creating a godbolt containing absolute C++ basics as a youtuber personality fangirl, since apparently I'm only repeating stuff I don't understand, which has to be why I can't express myself and provide evidence? It is beyond me how you don't seem to know what I'm talking about, but here you go... This should provide reasonable evidence of the lack of ergonomics when using C++, and how problematic this class stuff is from various technical standpoints. As you mentioned, in C style programming, we could instead simply forward declare a struct, than forward declare some functions. One line for each. Good header hygiene. Clean. Done. But noo, this is C++ and we can't have straightforward code and low coupling. Full link: https://godbolt.org/#z:OYLghAFBqd5QCxAYwPYBMCmBRdBLAF1QCcAaPECAMzwBtMA7AQwFtMQByARg9KtQYEAysib0QXACx8BBAKoBnTAAUAHpwAMvAFYTStJg1DIApACYAQuYukl9ZATwDKjdAGFUtAK4sGe1wAyeAyYAHI%2BAEaYxCAAzKQADqgKhE4MHt6%2BekkpjgJBIeEsUTHxdpgOaUIETMQEGT5%2BXLaY9nkM1bUEBWGR0XG2NXUNWc0KQ93BvcX9sQCUtqhexMjsHAD06wDUAGJ07Fv8qAB0CCYaAIKbW8HI3ljoWxEAnltoDAo%2B0QpbXilGW3MsVu90wgNibiOpxMsWw5wu8LuTAUPx2qFQMIsWy21ywSOITHaW1QVF26K2EAYqAIWyYWywNAYqQEc3hbLMwNJGmxuNQmAUDDAHBpaBYCX2IDeCEMwDBRC2XC28oAbtE8FRnmzLsrUHhHuhUAB9I6G8ZeKhUCBo1AgEAWWpbABUEVqc2xOO21tt9uI9L5AqFItQYolWxC40wj3GxC8Di2LD%2BNKiWwA1lSAO4MUhbYiYACOXjwuZ%2BSwI0TeBhRStQTzBDKm6DZAHYrJd3WSa46juCACJhzDpjsQZpbMzZl3EVmxLEev38wXCt7B8XiJcfAgxhwkeOJ2upjNZrbphB4ZAIHP5wvFivIn7y5P1kKNtvuo4AWhhuFQABUT0YFBAU4zry86BkuIarqItC0MEwC0vGmAEAgGAXgWRb8jcNL3mCaaoJm2bHqe565mh15IlW2H0pgjKRvC7ZYPQZaHOimI8tsBqgYuoorgcUEwQCWDRrGRC%2BiRV4YYQ1Z7rh%2BFHieZ6oeJPzkXeNYPtRDbNj2WoIhyrjqjp1wAJIMFsbjWNYR5gtKqpSYaj6YIa8EqTcplIdZmBMFgvrbpJ6Z0LQYbUheYi0JqlzXMmfxMBE9DHPC1zfjWmCqqZDnOZWCgEdZTC2fKIJeFgtLQUqCBgsEZbEMwgVYAkriMMgeD8qQCXbIY%2BqYHVDBYAwjUYSSVFdT1fUKK1pWErSuaKehjxRPwU3pmCoimSljBUTRpVLZl2YFfgAkVAYBLtGNA2YT8NCtOgPztQhSEYD8EC7bBa5CVuvo3YJG7CSQczxRF2y/ngPxA1sCTEKgsWYCwhKnrWoh/OVpKGM8SHPWeMoYfwpXJHWnX1b1TVZWNoWbb8ChMLKS5FdKql7rm3H7Ogf1XNsQK7WCMKQui9mdVw0KwmNbO9aC4Jc0atVmPzcL/bS3VbAoNYCMcys6S51psetwTMqZA3Ws2rYXAkXixaeIB0e6r00j6rGzuGZZRl9cZ4odMMCOb2Lu/LNSOMgWw%2Bk60Mpo5E6AZinvjDDvs6nqVHRqgzyGiH/vOq6YeXJ71xyAw80EF4zBlmFVm0sATDBFsNlyjWYOoMqepymVWw84y2uGhn2zqkX6aGFhNYI37Dr%2BUhWwAEoXEZRk4r8TIFo5CQbhSShgtDwSAbWtB4b9bdbL%2B0TlddR5MK88p93neAz4ac%2B%2BoP54Rz7VGMdEW8QKf5%2BX/LdWNTQvvAOi%2BCYG6EQvBYWlDSLurwQZECrqXbOXhArHyUFvG6kkOIBkXKtFaMEiruUOHnSoAhQbzwuDsMeABpZm7ZrhCDUoQeuYJAHQUQtmCm0CtgwXGKTbiD9XKVWqiWUk2CVJbzKrmcOjsrYOhMC2bhWxVDZmeNmAAXqxSR2lpw6Qoe3HWxBvJSRPFghuj5tbElJD6bK5dcqV3jEwIO8Fb6wzYHdJmW9Qh4XGgQIUPxtC7hgjYtwFJCIKXTEsWgs1aE5jwMABAwDYJukwKoVYc83HxhIGCBQzxBBMEqKYF8GsIi6noMQBIBgmIgzEjNZmnto76h/H%2BYAAEgIa2drUV2Oska3WQugbMy1iQMELkwBIdUHTIlBl0YxHYPE3irIY466cclDgqjInaggtjyP7r6FOk4ba4gOs0okA13iWxIF0wwPS%2BkDM8u9H4CRRm63RBMly0y0iewAH7WlDtORpOyjppDGZ9TcIljk616a8fpgzLkjLqGM609zMqayZDMhElwwZ4GVISdgW914ED4dw6IvDsxmgtEkhQyFYHoAXEmcqbkG5lS8uWQBFL4ZKDGeZSwlkQY0yklEch7pjJIwYCjWpUoMY/GEZgJhJUDlfB8vw6lnkdEV05WCemy5GZb3QdjLwkTNqvGJcEslYEFXYW5diS2/cFGAhbJ7dsCzZErMUWnC47YVEOo0ckqaFVcViAUMrCpTZVEG0Mp6UMUJkADMFhydmosoQIDDQLWZFwql%2BmNNzAllovR2gdBs1k6dLVzPVl2ckMI%2BwhEHG8kcY4nipw%2BbObpGYyZLQEIc4gnt3yfgNIDf87zgLbFra4vunsGKITBEcB1zr43GTFIFAadjfaB2DrUVeDiOnZj0T1VyKQip4EnVDRg3sfk0HoPCdNyd01zsTgu7NCJc2OvdLmXOVV%2BylvRN6Woo6/WBq2EZSdo1tS6keOm9ttT6kWqxOsR0WwfVOlZu%2By46a3k2qWTSVZycJxukkaB8DkHHTQe0rB59IBXnolXuhnEmHlZQYtbhxF1Hrh7FXMvBgxxQ0JHDcCYWhUOYQmjbG6Wuk2N3A46LNgLASCajjTR7YdbUbXQlSq%2BgWUnhAM2lNWoDaIJyi3bjIaDVCY9NYdSbFW6ik7oyUSLANQ6DerGkZPlrwBruSZejIwzVSog2/HIcxtNkzKvU04y4CyGOhxzQbV1ihnqj3HtNa8TctbtCcgNf26q7qavPFQcGLB4JljPEyKCstnw3o1rUM8NCHDLFSTUbqSQKpmN1aS8l%2B5XEiamkhE5Xj2HYJ5viFphpjWzgsEpllVhLA3FQTSYAuYJqit60wIBNYjgTl7F7dAtoX5eFnhuTmx7X2witPhs9Ic5hAQHUaE0qbqDognMcWUBBAINNnIyUKrwcgpEhop0BYJMmkUjPBTFvy8bdR0xhPOOc85orCr1u9yxTIaBdTyz0%2BGfS2meT6Ve/kSrJj4t90VW8XhLZW9PNbF8NsQi2822ESPVvrbJ24Unn4gtXp7BwBYtBOAAFZeB%2BA4FoUgNoOCDcsgrZYqxAQch4KQAgmgmcLBTCAVnTZjhcDMFwAAbMrrgTYlcaGVwADjMKz/QnBJC8BYCAZXGhjhNm15IAAnE2SQkhles4d02Lg8ROfc957wBQIANDi8lwsOAsAYCIBQHJ6I5BKAMwKSAYAKvmgHsqt7iAERJekAiMEWozxOBi/T8wYgzwADyERtAVAl1z3goo2CCAL8C1PWBAHADcKFb33BeBYGhkYcQ5fSD4Hpo4VULfudxIqEAtY3OPUs%2B7zBCIBJ88eCwKnjcW7s%2B8FVMQPJSgexQxlPxUA5eFhUAMHUgAak1dMBeuor5kIIEQYh2BSGv/IJQahU%2B6GaAYIwKALKWH0HgCI3vYBmA2AQAEgBUBBSA19OBYhXctBDsec540gW9eAa5ohiA64ADAIWg2g0gXBuoRgmhSBAgpgigShshkhtZ8CyDcg0gegSD%2BgxhWhS8qgJhKCGDsCBBOg6haC%2BgYgxgWDPBGg9AI4uDiCeCJAFhBcVh79mc2cOdU9ecZFtdlc3xldJAthgBkBfYVcFcKRcBCBtwgQuA5heAy9YCFgaVvJKBpdZdfdJ8jdSATcbdjhJBtdYgNBXczBrdYhrdJBYhtcmxSB3dkDOAvcfc/d99SBA8Q9SwjYCAI8IAo9ohQhWA1hVAlCVC1CNDfYIAvoGAUxjDCD8ARI9Q9B%2BAb8oJ79pAyin8VB1Bu839SB0wCQEgV8ZCOB2dAj5DOAC8gFYixk0jlDVD1DNCFRlcdCIAPB1NfRDCCjTCpdSALD%2BhMC7DjcbDjhWcVdrclCmwtcNBWc1c3cuiOBQjfc5i4CZdJBJZ/DXC/CzBLcvD1d9dJ9Yg5Du9PdwizCDcOAzBViuANBzd/jASgSgTDi3iQiPj5i18UhnBJAgA%3D https://godbolt.org/#z:OYLghAFBqd5QCxAYwPYBMCmBRdBLAF1QCcAaP...

CyberDildonics 3mo ago
How about you simply Ctrl+F for "build time" or "compile time" and admit you have been lying, have been extremely adversarial, and have been incredibly lazy? More insults but there is no difference here. I looked at your godbolt link, which part of this does C avoid? Is your whole argument here that you have to define a class' data even though you have to do the same thing in C? Is it your argument against an optional feature seriously that you can't use the PIMPL pattern from the 90s ? Holy mother of god, that's what is so important? Every struct and class definition you have ever written compiles in a fraction of a second on hardware from 15 years ago this makes no sense at all. It even took you an entire novel of "nu uh" and "this program was written in C so everything else is bad" to get there. What happened to all the toxic program destroying architecture effects? Now it boils down to something that is no different but without it all the same memory bugs persist.
- jstimpfle 3mo ago
  > More insults but there is no difference here. Rebutting your wild and easily disproved claims where it's necessary. > I looked at your godbolt link, which part of this does C avoid? Should I spell it out again for you? With non-class programming, you can do struct Foo; struct Bar; Bar *bar_create(); void bar_destroy(Bar *bar); void foo_doThing(Foo *foo); Foo *foo_create(int x, int y, Bar *bar); void foo_destroy(Foo *foo); And that's literally the API, clean and readable. Now granted, it doesn't do RAII, but here's the essence of the API, in a form that you can actually improve and develop and refactor, and which doesn't require you to rebuild the world if you changed something in a remote corner of the codebase. This is super well known common lore, and if you haven't noticed this yourself and haven't heard many people talking about this, you simply don't know what you're talking about. > Every struct and class definition you have ever written compiles in a fraction of a second on hardware from 15 years ago this makes no sense at all. I'm not repeating once again how this requires you to include the world for the smallest thing which is extremely painful. > Is it your argument against an optional feature seriously that you can't use the PIMPL pattern from the 90s ? Holy mother of god, that's what is so important? Every struct and class definition you have ever written compiles in a fraction of a second on hardware from 15 years ago this makes no sense at all. It even took you an entire novel of "nu uh" and "this program was written in C so everything else is bad" to get there. This is not about single-build times (which are much more affected by by template metaprogramming), but about quadratic incremental rebuild scaling. And "in a fraction of a second" is a ridiculous argument when it's well known that C++ single build times are spectacularly bad and developers have to wait way too much for clean rebuilds too. You just don't get it. And no, you don't do PIMPL. It doesn't scale at all. It's realistic to PIMPL a plain struct once in a while, but NOT with C++ classes with methods etc on a regular basis. It's not ergonomic to do so, it requires even much more boilerplate to do the simplest thing, and it makes it incredibly hard to change and fix and evolve anything. Plus, PIMPL does add a runtime indirection btw. It's BAD. Again, I know what I'm talking down not because I'm repeating what "my heroes" said but because I've actually tried to make it work, many times. It doesn't work. And you're not doing PIMPL either. Want to know how I know? BECAUSE IT DOESN'T WORK AND YOU ARE JUST TALKING. > Now it boils down to something that is no different but without it all the same memory bugs persist. You can't be serious. Now you claim that's the only thing I said? No, I've said many other things. You're a loudmouth who doesn't understand the most basic thing, so we have to spend days before you accept the tiniest straightforward common sense argument that you could just google. Do you want to go down the next rabbit hole? Because I don't, I'm so done with you.