9 ms·

Untitled Document Syndrome

80 points by naish 18y ago

bisceglie 18y ago
i see this as a flaw in modern operating systems. the LifeStream OS concept dealt with this rather nicely, providing a document-centric, time-oriented file system, but also allowing for versatile meta-data to aid in classifying objects and navigating around.
- jamii 18y ago
  The Sugar journal does the same. Its a shame the rest of Sugar is currently unusable as a main desktop.
- dfens 18y ago
  Jef Raskin worked on an OS named Archy that also dealt with this problem: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archy#Persistence http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archy#Persistence
josefresco 18y ago
All major office apps have had 'auto-save' as a feature for oh I dunno .. a million years now.
- ivey 18y ago
  This goes beyond auto-save. He's talking about auto-first-save, or just remember-what-I-was-doing mode.
- alabut 18y ago
  That's not the main thrust of the article, it's about a class of apps like Yojimbo, iTunes and iPhoto that abstract away the underlying file system so that even the concept of saving data goes away.
- Zak 18y ago
  The point of the article was not that applications should have auto-save. As I read it, the point is that our hierarchical filesystems are not an especially good abstraction for organizing many types of data, and that applications should provide users with better abstractions in more cases. It appears to be a response to The Case Against Everything Buckets (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=460274 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=460274).
LeChuck 18y ago
One thing I've never understood is the confirmation dialogue you get when closing an application. Of course I want to save the document! The only time wouldn't want to save my changes is when I want to revert all the changes I made this session. I already have a perfectly good button for that the, undo button. (at least in a perfect world).
- thorax 18y ago
  You don't ever run into that accidental situation where you opened a doc/makefile/source/etc that you just wanted to view but not change? That dialog is handy when you accidentally made a change but weren't aware of it. It doesn't happen a lot, but I know I'd have a number of more random characters in documents than I have now.
  - ambition 18y ago
    I think unlimited undo would solve this situation. If you're autosaving revisions, it's not a huge step to imagine allowing undo across application invocations.
- lunchbox 18y ago
  +1. You could make the default "X" button mean "save and close", and have a separate button (perhaps in the drop-down menus, since this action is rare) mean "save and close".
  - LeChuck 18y ago
    Exactly. The dialog is based on the assumption that both options are equally likely to be used. That's simply not true. A user might click no but will almost always click yes. A dialog that almost always receives the same answer should be eliminated.
DannoHung 18y ago
I just want my filesystem to be categorical instead of hierarchical. Maybe some use of metadata types would make it easier to avoid collisions too? Example. My "The Battle of Evermore" mp3 could live in the following typed categories: "FileHash:blahblablahblah" "iNode: blahblahblah" "Title: The Battle of Evermore" "Artist:Led Zeppelin" "Album:Led Zeppelin IV" "Collection:Project: LotR RotK Music Video" "Playlist:Music: Swordfightin' Songs" etc etc Is that so wrong? If you use a rigorous enough metadata type system, you could program it too!
- DLWormwood 18y ago
  > I just want my filesystem to be categorical instead of hierarchical. Maybe some use of metadata types would make it easier to avoid collisions too? What's weird is that the very first file system the Mac used was very close to this. MFS didn't support true directories; folders were an illusion provided by the Finder. Be OS, I believe, was the closest to your ideal that was ever developed, but it was considered too alien and "late" for it to have ever gotten traction. Just like the automobile got saddled with the internal combustion engine and manual wheel-based control, personal computers got stuck with x86 and hierarchical file systems.
  - jrockway 18y ago
    personal computers got stuck with x86 and hierarchical file systems And UNIX. Can I have my Lisp machine back, please? (OK, so I never had a Lisp machine. But I want one :P)
    - eru 18y ago
      But with lexical scoping!
- potatolicious 18y ago
  MacOS's spotlight feature is somewhat close to what you're describing - and it can be extended to index/search metadata from file formats not in its default list. That being said, it would be nice if such abilities can be extended to 3rd party developers, so that I can query the OS with a string and have relevant files come back.
decode 18y ago
Most people don't understand hierarchical filesystems. I understand that and that's fine. As designers and programmers, we should be enabling those people to have control over and access to their stuff in a way that they can use. But I do understand hierarchical filesystems, so why would I want to do things the same way as people that don't? I don't use notepad.exe just because vim is too confusing for most people, either. I installed iTunes once and it took me a couple of confused minutes to figure out that I couldn't play a file in it. First you have to teach the app about all of the music that I might someday want to play, then you can finally choose one of those and play it. But I know where my music files are on the disk and I just want to play them. To use Gruber's analogy, I wanted to type 'print "Hello World"' and it wanted me to start defining includes. In the same way, I store my information in text files on the disk. They're arranged in a way that makes sense to me. They're searchable, portable, and small. And it works great for me.
- jodrellblank 18y ago
  I do understand hierarchical filesystems, so why would I want to do things the same way as people that don't? The filesystem isn't relevant to what either of you want to do - namely, start taking notes, and, not lose them if you forget to save them. Sure, save them wherever you like however you like - but I bet you start with "I need to make a note of this phonenumber" and not "I need to create ~/data/contacts/business/suppliers/joans.computers" so I can put this phonenumber in it".
  - anamax 18y ago
    > I bet you start with "I need to make a note of this phonenumber" and not "I need to create ~/data/contacts/business/suppliers/joans.computers" so I can put this phonenumber in it". I only save things that think that I'll want to find some time in the future. As a result, I don't think "I need to make a note of this phone number". Instead, I ask something like "How do I make a note of this phone number so I can find it again?" and then I think "I should put it {some place}". Yes, hierarchical file systems are merely one of the many ways to implement "{some place}", but that doesn't make "{some place}" unimportant, irrelevant, or unnecessary.
  - 18y ago
unalone 18y ago
Is there anything like Yojimbo but simpler? Some program for me to jot notes and clip things that doesn't reformat text or give me tons of filters? Yojimbo and Evernote are both too bulky for my tastes. Anybody have any recommendations?
- GHFigs 18y ago
  My personal favorite is the woefully outdated (but free) xPad. http://getxpad.com/ http://getxpad.com/ It's no longer developed, and has a few annoying bugs and interface quirks, but it comes the closest to my ideal. It's basically just a notebook of RTF (with images) pages. The simple magic for me is that you can just Cmd-N and start typing, and then when you're done, Cmd-R to rename/title it. No saving, obviously, but also no shift-tab or clicking in a title field. There's also a services menu shortcut for clippings: Cmd-Shift-X. Contrast with Yojimbo (and many others), where a new note defaults to the title field. You have to either press enter twice or tab three times just to get the cursor to the note field. Even the "Quick Input" panel asks you for a title and tags first.
- jaaron 18y ago
  If you're using a mac there a lot of note taking programs: - Evernote - VoodooPad - NoteTaker - Journler - viJournal - MacJournal - TAO - DEVONThink - Tinderbox - Yojimbo And that's a list from what I've been using for note taking: emacs org-mode. Though lately I've been a bit torn between using org-mode and something like Evernote, particularly due to its device synchronization. I would really like to hear other people's thoughts about this. Oh, and if you don't like Yojimbo and Evernote, you might want to check out Voodoo Pad.
  - tigerthink 18y ago
    I like xPad. It's simple and free: http://getxpad.com/ http://getxpad.com/
  - access_denied 18y ago
    I also use org-mode for this. All in all I am pretty much happy with it. What would be a plus with one of those Cocoa-base boxes is inline images an rich text. On the other hand I have now a nice file-folder structure which is nicer for scripting.
jrockway 18y ago
Would it make me a "smug Perl weenie" to point out that the Perl should be: say "Hello, world." instead of print "Hello, world.\n" (Larry++ for having the balls to call it "say" and not "println". It's shorter, and it's a real word!)
- anthonyrubin 18y ago
  His example also won't work in Python 3.0.
- bonaldi 18y ago
  There's more than one way to do it, then?
pg 18y ago
Odd. I never knew this problem even existed. Practically everything I make starts with vi, and I never just type it without an argument. I write untitled things on Etherpad (because it doesn't let you give things titles yet), but Etherpad backs up every keystroke.
- kahseng 18y ago
  What about before Etherpad? I'm curious to know.. :)
  - pg 18y ago
    Before Etherpad, I solved the problems it solves by various expedients like publishing drafts on my private web server, putting stuff on wikis, and exchanging drafts by email. Etherpad is a bigger deal than people realize yet. It's one of those things you don't understand till you try it. I myself didn't. I put off trying their first beta for weeks, and then within about 2 minutes of trying it I got it.
bouncingsoul 18y ago
I'm surprised he didn't mention the iPhone Notes application as a great example of the principles he's talking about: besides autosave and getting rid of the filing friction it also eliminates the friction of naming. For me a huge part of the hassle with saving documents is naming them. When I'm in note-jotting mode it's usually low level, so to have to step back and try to quickly come up with a title that covers everything I've not yet written is frustrating because I'm not in an overview mindset and there's nothing yet to summarize. Add on to that the administrative work of filing, and saving text documents becomes something I put off for as long as possible. I've tried Notational Velocity, but it has the same problem of forcing you to create a title separate from the content. (It also lacks creation dates, which are I find valuable for putting notes into context.)
dthakur 18y ago
OneNote handles this really well. It automatically saves everything. Very handy when working on notes and ideas.
thaumaturgy 18y ago
I would love to solve this problem. I've commented before about the limitations of current file system management (e.g. top comment on http://www.woobius.com/scribbles/posts/0007-document-control.html http://www.woobius.com/scribbles/posts/0007-document-control...), and I've worked out most of the UI and algorithmic structure for a replacement system. Soon. Real soon now, I'll get sick enough of dealing with file "management" systems, and this will start to roll out.
statictype 18y ago
Abstracting away the filesystem works great if all the software you use does provide you a way to get to it anyway (like iTunes does) if you really want it. However a lot of software doesn't provide that. For example, on my S60 phone, the file system is pretty much hidden from the user. You just save your notes\contacts\pdfs\mp3s and the programs know where to put them and how to retrieve them. But try saving a python script as a note and then trying to get Python to execute it on your phone. Oops, no way to find out where that damn file is saved.

80 points by naish 18y ago

i see this as a flaw in modern operating systems. the LifeStream OS concept dealt with this rather nicely, providing a document-centric, time-oriented file system, but also allowing for versatile meta-data to aid in classifying objects and navigating around.

jamii 18y ago
The Sugar journal does the same. Its a shame the rest of Sugar is currently unusable as a main desktop.
dfens 18y ago
Jef Raskin worked on an OS named Archy that also dealt with this problem: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archy#Persistence http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archy#Persistence

josefresco 18y ago

All major office apps have had 'auto-save' as a feature for oh I dunno .. a million years now.

ivey 18y ago
This goes beyond auto-save. He's talking about auto-first-save, or just remember-what-I-was-doing mode.
alabut 18y ago
That's not the main thrust of the article, it's about a class of apps like Yojimbo, iTunes and iPhoto that abstract away the underlying file system so that even the concept of saving data goes away.
Zak 18y ago
The point of the article was not that applications should have auto-save. As I read it, the point is that our hierarchical filesystems are not an especially good abstraction for organizing many types of data, and that applications should provide users with better abstractions in more cases. It appears to be a response to The Case Against Everything Buckets (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=460274 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=460274).

LeChuck 18y ago

One thing I've never understood is the confirmation dialogue you get when closing an application. Of course I want to save the document! The only time wouldn't want to save my changes is when I want to revert all the changes I made this session. I already have a perfectly good button for that the, undo button. (at least in a perfect world).

thorax 18y ago
You don't ever run into that accidental situation where you opened a doc/makefile/source/etc that you just wanted to view but not change? That dialog is handy when you accidentally made a change but weren't aware of it. It doesn't happen a lot, but I know I'd have a number of more random characters in documents than I have now.
- ambition 18y ago
  I think unlimited undo would solve this situation. If you're autosaving revisions, it's not a huge step to imagine allowing undo across application invocations.
lunchbox 18y ago
+1. You could make the default "X" button mean "save and close", and have a separate button (perhaps in the drop-down menus, since this action is rare) mean "save and close".
- LeChuck 18y ago
  Exactly. The dialog is based on the assumption that both options are equally likely to be used. That's simply not true. A user might click no but will almost always click yes. A dialog that almost always receives the same answer should be eliminated.

DannoHung 18y ago

I just want my filesystem to be categorical instead of hierarchical. Maybe some use of metadata types would make it easier to avoid collisions too? Example. My "The Battle of Evermore" mp3 could live in the following typed categories: "FileHash:blahblablahblah" "iNode: blahblahblah" "Title: The Battle of Evermore" "Artist:Led Zeppelin" "Album:Led Zeppelin IV" "Collection:Project: LotR RotK Music Video" "Playlist:Music: Swordfightin' Songs" etc etc Is that so wrong? If you use a rigorous enough metadata type system, you could program it too!

DLWormwood 18y ago
> I just want my filesystem to be categorical instead of hierarchical. Maybe some use of metadata types would make it easier to avoid collisions too? What's weird is that the very first file system the Mac used was very close to this. MFS didn't support true directories; folders were an illusion provided by the Finder. Be OS, I believe, was the closest to your ideal that was ever developed, but it was considered too alien and "late" for it to have ever gotten traction. Just like the automobile got saddled with the internal combustion engine and manual wheel-based control, personal computers got stuck with x86 and hierarchical file systems.
- jrockway 18y ago
  personal computers got stuck with x86 and hierarchical file systems And UNIX. Can I have my Lisp machine back, please? (OK, so I never had a Lisp machine. But I want one :P)
  - eru 18y ago
    But with lexical scoping!
potatolicious 18y ago
MacOS's spotlight feature is somewhat close to what you're describing - and it can be extended to index/search metadata from file formats not in its default list. That being said, it would be nice if such abilities can be extended to 3rd party developers, so that I can query the OS with a string and have relevant files come back.

decode 18y ago

Most people don't understand hierarchical filesystems. I understand that and that's fine. As designers and programmers, we should be enabling those people to have control over and access to their stuff in a way that they can use. But I do understand hierarchical filesystems, so why would I want to do things the same way as people that don't? I don't use notepad.exe just because vim is too confusing for most people, either. I installed iTunes once and it took me a couple of confused minutes to figure out that I couldn't play a file in it. First you have to teach the app about all of the music that I might someday want to play, then you can finally choose one of those and play it. But I know where my music files are on the disk and I just want to play them. To use Gruber's analogy, I wanted to type 'print "Hello World"' and it wanted me to start defining includes. In the same way, I store my information in text files on the disk. They're arranged in a way that makes sense to me. They're searchable, portable, and small. And it works great for me.

jodrellblank 18y ago
I do understand hierarchical filesystems, so why would I want to do things the same way as people that don't? The filesystem isn't relevant to what either of you want to do - namely, start taking notes, and, not lose them if you forget to save them. Sure, save them wherever you like however you like - but I bet you start with "I need to make a note of this phonenumber" and not "I need to create ~/data/contacts/business/suppliers/joans.computers" so I can put this phonenumber in it".
- anamax 18y ago
  > I bet you start with "I need to make a note of this phonenumber" and not "I need to create ~/data/contacts/business/suppliers/joans.computers" so I can put this phonenumber in it". I only save things that think that I'll want to find some time in the future. As a result, I don't think "I need to make a note of this phone number". Instead, I ask something like "How do I make a note of this phone number so I can find it again?" and then I think "I should put it {some place}". Yes, hierarchical file systems are merely one of the many ways to implement "{some place}", but that doesn't make "{some place}" unimportant, irrelevant, or unnecessary.
- 18y ago

unalone 18y ago

Is there anything like Yojimbo but simpler? Some program for me to jot notes and clip things that doesn't reformat text or give me tons of filters? Yojimbo and Evernote are both too bulky for my tastes. Anybody have any recommendations?

GHFigs 18y ago
My personal favorite is the woefully outdated (but free) xPad. http://getxpad.com/ http://getxpad.com/ It's no longer developed, and has a few annoying bugs and interface quirks, but it comes the closest to my ideal. It's basically just a notebook of RTF (with images) pages. The simple magic for me is that you can just Cmd-N and start typing, and then when you're done, Cmd-R to rename/title it. No saving, obviously, but also no shift-tab or clicking in a title field. There's also a services menu shortcut for clippings: Cmd-Shift-X. Contrast with Yojimbo (and many others), where a new note defaults to the title field. You have to either press enter twice or tab three times just to get the cursor to the note field. Even the "Quick Input" panel asks you for a title and tags first.
jaaron 18y ago
If you're using a mac there a lot of note taking programs: - Evernote - VoodooPad - NoteTaker - Journler - viJournal - MacJournal - TAO - DEVONThink - Tinderbox - Yojimbo And that's a list from what I've been using for note taking: emacs org-mode. Though lately I've been a bit torn between using org-mode and something like Evernote, particularly due to its device synchronization. I would really like to hear other people's thoughts about this. Oh, and if you don't like Yojimbo and Evernote, you might want to check out Voodoo Pad.
- tigerthink 18y ago
  I like xPad. It's simple and free: http://getxpad.com/ http://getxpad.com/
- access_denied 18y ago
  I also use org-mode for this. All in all I am pretty much happy with it. What would be a plus with one of those Cocoa-base boxes is inline images an rich text. On the other hand I have now a nice file-folder structure which is nicer for scripting.

jrockway 18y ago

Would it make me a "smug Perl weenie" to point out that the Perl should be: say "Hello, world." instead of print "Hello, world.\n" (Larry++ for having the balls to call it "say" and not "println". It's shorter, and it's a real word!)

anthonyrubin 18y ago
His example also won't work in Python 3.0.
bonaldi 18y ago
There's more than one way to do it, then?

pg 18y ago

Odd. I never knew this problem even existed. Practically everything I make starts with vi, and I never just type it without an argument. I write untitled things on Etherpad (because it doesn't let you give things titles yet), but Etherpad backs up every keystroke.

kahseng 18y ago
What about before Etherpad? I'm curious to know.. :)
- pg 18y ago
  Before Etherpad, I solved the problems it solves by various expedients like publishing drafts on my private web server, putting stuff on wikis, and exchanging drafts by email. Etherpad is a bigger deal than people realize yet. It's one of those things you don't understand till you try it. I myself didn't. I put off trying their first beta for weeks, and then within about 2 minutes of trying it I got it.

bouncingsoul 18y ago

I'm surprised he didn't mention the iPhone Notes application as a great example of the principles he's talking about: besides autosave and getting rid of the filing friction it also eliminates the friction of naming. For me a huge part of the hassle with saving documents is naming them. When I'm in note-jotting mode it's usually low level, so to have to step back and try to quickly come up with a title that covers everything I've not yet written is frustrating because I'm not in an overview mindset and there's nothing yet to summarize. Add on to that the administrative work of filing, and saving text documents becomes something I put off for as long as possible. I've tried Notational Velocity, but it has the same problem of forcing you to create a title separate from the content. (It also lacks creation dates, which are I find valuable for putting notes into context.)

dthakur 18y ago

OneNote handles this really well. It automatically saves everything. Very handy when working on notes and ideas.

thaumaturgy 18y ago

I would love to solve this problem. I've commented before about the limitations of current file system management (e.g. top comment on http://www.woobius.com/scribbles/posts/0007-document-control.html http://www.woobius.com/scribbles/posts/0007-document-control...), and I've worked out most of the UI and algorithmic structure for a replacement system. Soon. Real soon now, I'll get sick enough of dealing with file "management" systems, and this will start to roll out.

statictype 18y ago

Abstracting away the filesystem works great if all the software you use does provide you a way to get to it anyway (like iTunes does) if you really want it. However a lot of software doesn't provide that. For example, on my S60 phone, the file system is pretty much hidden from the user. You just save your notes\contacts\pdfs\mp3s and the programs know where to put them and how to retrieve them. But try saving a python script as a note and then trying to get Python to execute it on your phone. Oops, no way to find out where that damn file is saved.