5 ms·

I guess that is one way to manufacture consent.

by sva_ 3mo ago

vrganj 3mo ago
As another European, I agree with GP. I don't fully trust my government. But I definitely trust it more than any American tech company. I can also vote out my government. I can't do that for Big Tech.
- Eduard 3mo ago
  > I can also vote out my government. No.
- joe_mamba 3mo ago
  [flagged]
  - vrganj 3mo ago
    The EU pricks that pushed Chat Control is... American oligarch Ashton Kutcher. https://edri.org/our-work/how-a-hollywood-star-lobbies-the-eu-for-more-surveillance/ https://edri.org/our-work/how-a-hollywood-star-lobbies-the-e...
    - joe_mamba 3mo ago
      [flagged]
      - vrganj 3mo ago
        You're moving the goalposts from "pushing". It also leaves a bad taste in ones mouth that you brought up his Jewish background unprompted. I do wonder how your account is still active. Every time I see your name, it is in connection with you lowering the quality of conversation by introducing aggressive ad-hominems, dehumanizing language, insults and attempts to derail instead of engagement with points made. This time, it even has strong undertones of antisemitic Jewish world conspiracy theories. Is this level of discourse really what we should be striving for around here?
        joe_mamba 3mo ago
        [flagged]
        vrganj 3mo ago
        It is only problematic because you brought up his ethnicity, out of nowhere, in a clear nod to Nazi ideology. I had no idea he was Jewish, nor do I care. It has no effect on how I feel about him (which is poorly, because hes an American oligarch interfering with our democratic process). The fact you brought his ethnic identity into it, without any conceivable reason, however, reeks of antisemitic stereotypes. People can just be bad people. No need to bring their ethnic belonging into it, especially when it stokes the same flames that have brought horrendous cruelties before. Your own definition proves my point on the pushing. "Pushing a law is the process of getting a bill enacted." That is indeed what he did by lobbying. The list of examples above is not exhaustive, as denoted by the word "includes".
        joe_mamba 3mo ago
        [flagged]
        vrganj 3mo ago
        > That ethnicity is executing mass genocide in Gaza and is over 85%of the Epstein list perpetrators. My friend, now you have crossed from implied antisemitism into open antisemitism. Jews are not the same as Israelis. My lefty Jewish friends are all anti-Zionist. Conflating them is antisemitism. > I brought it up because ethnicities are used as shield so that useful idiots seen above defend criminal How can something be used as a shield or as anything for that matter if other people are not bringing it up or even aware of it? The only one to ever bring it up is you, in connection with him manipulating the EU's democratic processes. He did in fact do that. But to try and connect it to his ethnic belonging into it is to harken back to the same conspiracy theories that devastated Europe a hundred years ago. Some reading material: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Jewish_conspiracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Jewish_conspirac... Please rethink your ways. Stop being so toxic. Stop spreading antisemitism. Stop insulting other people. Stop with the pathologization of dissent, another callback to Europe's darkest hours. I will not engage in this thread any further, as I truly believe nothing productive can come from it now that you have gone fully mask off. I hope the mods take action accordingly. One last point regarding the pushing, nowhere does it say anything about legal abilities. Anyone can push a law. Any act involved in passing it is pushing, lobbying, voting, calling your rep, whatever. You keep trying to twist definitions to fit your preset conclusions. Your own source never narrowed it down the way you're trying to.
      - dang 3mo ago
        We've banned this account for repeatedly breaking the site guidelines and ignoring our requests to stop. Please don't create accounts to break HN's rules with.
    - lII1lIlI11ll 3mo ago
      Why wasn't he laughed out of the room then?
      - joe_mamba 3mo ago
        [flagged]
- Ajedi32 3mo ago
  > I can also vote out my government. You can't. Not if you're in the minority. Tyranny of the majority is still tyranny. You what you as an individual most certainly can do is stop using Roblox. Not ideal, but way easier than moving to a new country.
  - tarruda 3mo ago
    > You can't. Not if you're in the minority Is that a bad thing?
    - Ajedi32 3mo ago
      Compared to multiple competing privately run systems, which you can opt out of even if you're in the minority? Yes.
  - vrganj 3mo ago
    > Not if you're in the minority. Tyranny of the majority is still tyranny. > you as an individual I understand. Such is living in a society. No man is an island. > Not ideal, but way easier than moving to a new country. I've moved countries five times. I still haven't been able to get rid of my dependencies on Big Tech.
    - slopinthebag 3mo ago
      Most people can't move anywhere because getting citizenship is difficult. Meanwhile, all you need to do to get rid of a dependency on big tech is to log off.
  - brabel 3mo ago
    Tyranny of the majority is ... democracy?!
    - Ajedi32 3mo ago
      Unrestrained democracy, yes. Tyranny. People need to understand that having a majority opinion does not inherently give you the right to impose that opinion on everyone else. Such impositions must be done with extreme hesitancy and restraint. That's why many democratic countries have a constitution which prevents the government from restricting certain individual rights even in the face of popular opinion. But ultimately, the constitution is just a piece of paper. If people are determined to impose their will on others, it can only do so much.
- pluralmonad 3mo ago
  That seems backwards to me. You can choose to personally not do business with whatever big tech corp you dislike. Men with guns will show up at your house if you stop "doing business" with the regional government.
  - vrganj 3mo ago
    I can choose to move (and I have!), I can't practically quit my dependency on tech.
- skybrian 3mo ago
  Things look different if you’re comparing an American tech company to an American government.
  - vrganj 3mo ago
    That adds to the concern as a European. Thanks to the CLOUD Act, sharing data with an American tech company effectively is sharing data with the American government. And that I would definitely like to avoid.
    - account42 3mo ago
      The American government isn't going to send armed goons to my doorstep anytime soon.
      - vrganj 3mo ago
        These days, I wouldn't be so sure. Hell, they even did it to a sovereign head of state.
- sva_ 3mo ago
  I am also European, not sure why that matters though. This type of argument always sounds to me like someone was abused by their ex-partner, but now prefers their new partner who abuses them a little less. This is a common negotiation practice in business as well as politics. You make some absolutely outrageous demand, and people protest, but then you give them the -originally planned- light version of it, and they will accept it; in light of the worse option. There is no reason to endure this BS, hence I referenced manufacturing consent. I sometimes can not believe how easily people allow themselves to be manipulated. /// And you can vote out "Big Tech" - by refusing to use their products. Giving up your rights to play some videogame, as GP outlined, is an absolutely sad thing to witness. There are people who fought and died for the rights we have, and we allow them to be eroded for some silly consumerism.
  - vrganj 3mo ago
    > And you can vote out "Big Tech" - by refusing to use their products That argument completely ignores network effects. Case in point, Twitter is, for better or worse, still where a lot of public figures post their updates and announcements. It also now randomly bans people unless they give their biometric data to an oligarch that supports right wing extremists: https://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/1ukil0b/twitter_x_requesting_to_verify_im_human_by/ https://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/1ukil0b/twitter_x_...
    - sva_ 3mo ago
      I'm not sure what that has to do with age verification or such things, and even if you don't want to use the platform directly you can use mirrors like xcancel.com or nitter.net as drop-in replacements (which I use.) I dont think that site has any age verification measures implemented that are mandated by law as of now. But I'd just stop using it if they did or if the mirrors stopped working. All in all, I'm not sure if it has anything to do with the original topic of EU being about to enforce 'age verification'.

I guess that is one way to manufacture consent.

by sva_ 3mo ago

I guess that is one way to manufacture consent.

As another European, I agree with GP. I don't fully trust my government. But I definitely trust it more than any American tech company. I can also vote out my government. I can't do that for Big Tech.

Eduard 3mo ago
> I can also vote out my government. No.
joe_mamba 3mo ago
[flagged]
- vrganj 3mo ago
  The EU pricks that pushed Chat Control is... American oligarch Ashton Kutcher. https://edri.org/our-work/how-a-hollywood-star-lobbies-the-eu-for-more-surveillance/ https://edri.org/our-work/how-a-hollywood-star-lobbies-the-e...
  - joe_mamba 3mo ago
    [flagged]
    - vrganj 3mo ago
      You're moving the goalposts from "pushing". It also leaves a bad taste in ones mouth that you brought up his Jewish background unprompted. I do wonder how your account is still active. Every time I see your name, it is in connection with you lowering the quality of conversation by introducing aggressive ad-hominems, dehumanizing language, insults and attempts to derail instead of engagement with points made. This time, it even has strong undertones of antisemitic Jewish world conspiracy theories. Is this level of discourse really what we should be striving for around here?
      - joe_mamba 3mo ago
        [flagged]
        vrganj 3mo ago
        It is only problematic because you brought up his ethnicity, out of nowhere, in a clear nod to Nazi ideology. I had no idea he was Jewish, nor do I care. It has no effect on how I feel about him (which is poorly, because hes an American oligarch interfering with our democratic process). The fact you brought his ethnic identity into it, without any conceivable reason, however, reeks of antisemitic stereotypes. People can just be bad people. No need to bring their ethnic belonging into it, especially when it stokes the same flames that have brought horrendous cruelties before. Your own definition proves my point on the pushing. "Pushing a law is the process of getting a bill enacted." That is indeed what he did by lobbying. The list of examples above is not exhaustive, as denoted by the word "includes".
        joe_mamba 3mo ago
        [flagged]
        vrganj 3mo ago
        > That ethnicity is executing mass genocide in Gaza and is over 85%of the Epstein list perpetrators. My friend, now you have crossed from implied antisemitism into open antisemitism. Jews are not the same as Israelis. My lefty Jewish friends are all anti-Zionist. Conflating them is antisemitism. > I brought it up because ethnicities are used as shield so that useful idiots seen above defend criminal How can something be used as a shield or as anything for that matter if other people are not bringing it up or even aware of it? The only one to ever bring it up is you, in connection with him manipulating the EU's democratic processes. He did in fact do that. But to try and connect it to his ethnic belonging into it is to harken back to the same conspiracy theories that devastated Europe a hundred years ago. Some reading material: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Jewish_conspiracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Jewish_conspirac... Please rethink your ways. Stop being so toxic. Stop spreading antisemitism. Stop insulting other people. Stop with the pathologization of dissent, another callback to Europe's darkest hours. I will not engage in this thread any further, as I truly believe nothing productive can come from it now that you have gone fully mask off. I hope the mods take action accordingly. One last point regarding the pushing, nowhere does it say anything about legal abilities. Anyone can push a law. Any act involved in passing it is pushing, lobbying, voting, calling your rep, whatever. You keep trying to twist definitions to fit your preset conclusions. Your own source never narrowed it down the way you're trying to.
    - dang 3mo ago
      We've banned this account for repeatedly breaking the site guidelines and ignoring our requests to stop. Please don't create accounts to break HN's rules with.
  - lII1lIlI11ll 3mo ago
    Why wasn't he laughed out of the room then?
    - joe_mamba 3mo ago
      [flagged]
Ajedi32 3mo ago
> I can also vote out my government. You can't. Not if you're in the minority. Tyranny of the majority is still tyranny. You what you as an individual most certainly can do is stop using Roblox. Not ideal, but way easier than moving to a new country.
- tarruda 3mo ago
  > You can't. Not if you're in the minority Is that a bad thing?
  - Ajedi32 3mo ago
    Compared to multiple competing privately run systems, which you can opt out of even if you're in the minority? Yes.
- vrganj 3mo ago
  > Not if you're in the minority. Tyranny of the majority is still tyranny. > you as an individual I understand. Such is living in a society. No man is an island. > Not ideal, but way easier than moving to a new country. I've moved countries five times. I still haven't been able to get rid of my dependencies on Big Tech.
  - slopinthebag 3mo ago
    Most people can't move anywhere because getting citizenship is difficult. Meanwhile, all you need to do to get rid of a dependency on big tech is to log off.
- brabel 3mo ago
  Tyranny of the majority is ... democracy?!
  - Ajedi32 3mo ago
    Unrestrained democracy, yes. Tyranny. People need to understand that having a majority opinion does not inherently give you the right to impose that opinion on everyone else. Such impositions must be done with extreme hesitancy and restraint. That's why many democratic countries have a constitution which prevents the government from restricting certain individual rights even in the face of popular opinion. But ultimately, the constitution is just a piece of paper. If people are determined to impose their will on others, it can only do so much.
pluralmonad 3mo ago
That seems backwards to me. You can choose to personally not do business with whatever big tech corp you dislike. Men with guns will show up at your house if you stop "doing business" with the regional government.
- vrganj 3mo ago
  I can choose to move (and I have!), I can't practically quit my dependency on tech.
skybrian 3mo ago
Things look different if you’re comparing an American tech company to an American government.
- vrganj 3mo ago
  That adds to the concern as a European. Thanks to the CLOUD Act, sharing data with an American tech company effectively is sharing data with the American government. And that I would definitely like to avoid.
  - account42 3mo ago
    The American government isn't going to send armed goons to my doorstep anytime soon.
    - vrganj 3mo ago
      These days, I wouldn't be so sure. Hell, they even did it to a sovereign head of state.
sva_ 3mo ago
I am also European, not sure why that matters though. This type of argument always sounds to me like someone was abused by their ex-partner, but now prefers their new partner who abuses them a little less. This is a common negotiation practice in business as well as politics. You make some absolutely outrageous demand, and people protest, but then you give them the -originally planned- light version of it, and they will accept it; in light of the worse option. There is no reason to endure this BS, hence I referenced manufacturing consent. I sometimes can not believe how easily people allow themselves to be manipulated. /// And you can vote out "Big Tech" - by refusing to use their products. Giving up your rights to play some videogame, as GP outlined, is an absolutely sad thing to witness. There are people who fought and died for the rights we have, and we allow them to be eroded for some silly consumerism.
- vrganj 3mo ago
  > And you can vote out "Big Tech" - by refusing to use their products That argument completely ignores network effects. Case in point, Twitter is, for better or worse, still where a lot of public figures post their updates and announcements. It also now randomly bans people unless they give their biometric data to an oligarch that supports right wing extremists: https://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/1ukil0b/twitter_x_requesting_to_verify_im_human_by/ https://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/1ukil0b/twitter_x_...
  - sva_ 3mo ago
    I'm not sure what that has to do with age verification or such things, and even if you don't want to use the platform directly you can use mirrors like xcancel.com or nitter.net as drop-in replacements (which I use.) I dont think that site has any age verification measures implemented that are mandated by law as of now. But I'd just stop using it if they did or if the mirrors stopped working. All in all, I'm not sure if it has anything to do with the original topic of EU being about to enforce 'age verification'.