3 ms·

The death penalty is an example of two wrongs making a right in the minds of many people. It’s also at the same time an example of two wrongs not making a right

by dahart 3mo ago

The death penalty is an example of two wrongs making a right in the minds of many people. It’s also at the same time an example of two wrongs not making a right. Imprisoning people is wrong, unless the government does it? All so-called lawful punishments of individuals are a form of hope that two wrongs do make a right. Whether affirmative action is a wrong is your presumption, and it’s hotly contested, absolutely not universally agreed upon, which makes your use of ‘two wrongs don’t make a right’ a straw man. There are plenty of things wrong with preferential affirmative action, but I reject the framing that it’s evil, this is essentially an ad hominem attempting to quash any debate of the actual relative merits or the outcomes. I feel like we can’t make forward progress if you refuse to acknowledge the reasons that history has happened the way it did. See Chesterton’s Fence.

rayiner 3mo ago
> Imprisoning people is wrong, unless the government does it? All so-called lawful punishments of individuals are a form of hope that two wrongs do make a right. In that case, the punishment is not a “wrong” because the person being punished has moral culpability due to their bad act. That’s different from imposing a punishment on someone because of someone else’s bad act. That’s a principle that some societies hold that ours does not. In clan based societies, a wrong committed by one member of clan A to a member of clan B can justify retaliation against a different member of clan A.
- dahart 3mo ago
  I reject your presumptive framing that affirmative action is a “punishment”. If you help someone, you are punishing the entire world?
  - tanseydavid 3mo ago
    > Where else in our society do we justify imposing a moral wrong on a specific individual > If you help someone, you are punishing the entire world? You are missing (or maybe even ignoring) the huge difference between these two viewpoints.
    - dahart 3mo ago
      I’d be very happy to discuss the nuances and relative merits. I agree that it’s time to have race blind admissions and stop preferential treatment. I’m arguing against the hyperbolic notion that affirmative action is inherently immoral. @rayiner is trying to cut off the idea that it had any upsides and was ever reasonable. I’m still trying to convey that racism != any and all types of discrimination.
- cucumber3732842 3mo ago
  >That’s different from imposing a punishment on someone because of someone else’s bad act. I shell out thousands for engineered plans for a petty AF retaining wall because the boomers and their parents were cheap fucks and kept building shit that mushed over too fast (all retaining walls fall over, it's just a question of time). Damn near every area of society has tons of stuff like this. It's just blood guilt/debt with extra steps IMO.

by dahart 3mo ago

rayiner 3mo ago

> Imprisoning people is wrong, unless the government does it? All so-called lawful punishments of individuals are a form of hope that two wrongs do make a right. In that case, the punishment is not a “wrong” because the person being punished has moral culpability due to their bad act. That’s different from imposing a punishment on someone because of someone else’s bad act. That’s a principle that some societies hold that ours does not. In clan based societies, a wrong committed by one member of clan A to a member of clan B can justify retaliation against a different member of clan A.

dahart 3mo ago
I reject your presumptive framing that affirmative action is a “punishment”. If you help someone, you are punishing the entire world?
- tanseydavid 3mo ago
  > Where else in our society do we justify imposing a moral wrong on a specific individual > If you help someone, you are punishing the entire world? You are missing (or maybe even ignoring) the huge difference between these two viewpoints.
  - dahart 3mo ago
    I’d be very happy to discuss the nuances and relative merits. I agree that it’s time to have race blind admissions and stop preferential treatment. I’m arguing against the hyperbolic notion that affirmative action is inherently immoral. @rayiner is trying to cut off the idea that it had any upsides and was ever reasonable. I’m still trying to convey that racism != any and all types of discrimination.
cucumber3732842 3mo ago
>That’s different from imposing a punishment on someone because of someone else’s bad act. I shell out thousands for engineered plans for a petty AF retaining wall because the boomers and their parents were cheap fucks and kept building shit that mushed over too fast (all retaining walls fall over, it's just a question of time). Damn near every area of society has tons of stuff like this. It's just blood guilt/debt with extra steps IMO.