4 ms·

Crucially it's the responsibility of those who are making the claim here to bring evidence and definitions. The other approach, very popular on HN, has led to e

Crucially it's the responsibility of those who are making the claim here to bring evidence and definitions. The other approach, very popular on HN, has led to endless carping by people making outlandish claims without evidence and then demanding that every term possible be defined before they can be dismissed out of hand. The claim that any two things are equivalent just because they look similar is a strong one, and the onus is on the person advancing it to bring evidence, not to insist that they are considered correct until it is disproved. That's how it works with the flat earth and religion and everything else; we shouldn't accept an unsupported conclusion just because some people really, really like AI and don't want to have to justify their claims. The traditional response to such claims is ridicule [1]; we know trivially from all sorts of examples that presentation is not identity, and so 'but it looks similar' is not a convincing stance. 1 https://sites.psu.edu/sierraastle/2019/10/21/behold-a-man/ https://sites.psu.edu/sierraastle/2019/10/21/behold-a-man/

rlt 3mo ago
> Crucially it's the responsibility of those who are making the claim here to bring evidence and definitions Ok, I claim that if something draws reasonable conclusions to questions it hasn't previously seen by performing steps that look like reasoning, then it is reasoning. If you disagree then please define reasoning.
- Planktonne 3mo ago
  This is actually a perfect example of what I was referring to in my earlier comment; the strident [1] and rather aggressive insistence that your unsupported belief be proved wrong, rather than you providing literally any evidence that two distinct things are identical other than the assertion itself. You're making a strong claim here; the burden of proof [2] lies with you, in much the same way that it would if you declared that horoscopes know the future. We have a sufficient explanation for LLM behaviour that we have no reason to discard based solely on your whim; if you want to be convincing, then you'll need more than assertion. Similar appearance does not mean identical nature, and your position does not warrant serious consideration until you provide support for it. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_(philosophy) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_(philosophy)
  - rlt 3mo ago
    I provided my definition and argument. I can't engage further if you don't refute any of it.
    - Planktonne 3mo ago
      You didn't provide either; you made a claim--in your own words--and nothing more. There's nothing to refute [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitchens%27s_razor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitchens%27s_razor
  - buzzin__ 3mo ago
    It's simply amazing how you can be so confidently wrong. You got a perfectly reasonable response, clear, short. Yet, you chose to ignore it and attack the guy by claiming that the fact that LLMs give a reasonable response are his "beliefs", and "unsupported" at that. LoL. Is you claim that LLMs don't give a reasonable answers? Did you try to ask them some complex questions in the last 12 months? Or is your line of reasoning more in the line of "they heard all the questions before, and just memorized the answers?" Or, do you not agree with a statement that giving reasonable answers is reasoning?
    - Planktonne 3mo ago
      I think you're struggling her with the distinction between a statement and evidence for the statement. I know what the commenter believes, but they don't have any evidence for it beyond appearance. The appearance of similarity in two things we can already explain without having to posit identical nature is not proof that they are identical. Screwdrivers and hammers, planes and birds: we know about all sorts of things with similar effects but different mechanisms. If you want to argue for more similarity, you need more evidence than just your belief and superficial resemblance. That's got nothing to do with the results or capabilities of LLMs (and it's either blinkered or disingenuous that you're trying to elide that). > do you not agree with a statement that giving reasonable answers is reasoning? Note the seventh word: it's a statement. The other commenters knows it's a statement, you know it's a statement, not an argument or an explanation. but you are seemingly desperate for people to accept it as a proven fact without putting in the effort to prove it. It's unscientific and frankly embarrassing to be so certain without being able to do anything but hector about it; if it's so obvious, prove it.

rlt 3mo ago

> Crucially it's the responsibility of those who are making the claim here to bring evidence and definitions Ok, I claim that if something draws reasonable conclusions to questions it hasn't previously seen by performing steps that look like reasoning, then it is reasoning. If you disagree then please define reasoning.

Planktonne 3mo ago
This is actually a perfect example of what I was referring to in my earlier comment; the strident [1] and rather aggressive insistence that your unsupported belief be proved wrong, rather than you providing literally any evidence that two distinct things are identical other than the assertion itself. You're making a strong claim here; the burden of proof [2] lies with you, in much the same way that it would if you declared that horoscopes know the future. We have a sufficient explanation for LLM behaviour that we have no reason to discard based solely on your whim; if you want to be convincing, then you'll need more than assertion. Similar appearance does not mean identical nature, and your position does not warrant serious consideration until you provide support for it. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_(philosophy) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_(philosophy)
- rlt 3mo ago
  I provided my definition and argument. I can't engage further if you don't refute any of it.
  - Planktonne 3mo ago
    You didn't provide either; you made a claim--in your own words--and nothing more. There's nothing to refute [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitchens%27s_razor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitchens%27s_razor
- buzzin__ 3mo ago
  It's simply amazing how you can be so confidently wrong. You got a perfectly reasonable response, clear, short. Yet, you chose to ignore it and attack the guy by claiming that the fact that LLMs give a reasonable response are his "beliefs", and "unsupported" at that. LoL. Is you claim that LLMs don't give a reasonable answers? Did you try to ask them some complex questions in the last 12 months? Or is your line of reasoning more in the line of "they heard all the questions before, and just memorized the answers?" Or, do you not agree with a statement that giving reasonable answers is reasoning?
  - Planktonne 3mo ago
    I think you're struggling her with the distinction between a statement and evidence for the statement. I know what the commenter believes, but they don't have any evidence for it beyond appearance. The appearance of similarity in two things we can already explain without having to posit identical nature is not proof that they are identical. Screwdrivers and hammers, planes and birds: we know about all sorts of things with similar effects but different mechanisms. If you want to argue for more similarity, you need more evidence than just your belief and superficial resemblance. That's got nothing to do with the results or capabilities of LLMs (and it's either blinkered or disingenuous that you're trying to elide that). > do you not agree with a statement that giving reasonable answers is reasoning? Note the seventh word: it's a statement. The other commenters knows it's a statement, you know it's a statement, not an argument or an explanation. but you are seemingly desperate for people to accept it as a proven fact without putting in the effort to prove it. It's unscientific and frankly embarrassing to be so certain without being able to do anything but hector about it; if it's so obvious, prove it.