4 ms·

> I might be misremembering or misinterpreting, but it seems like you really need an LLC with a mail forwarding service and a cheap second phone line just to av

by Telaneo 3mo ago

> I might be misremembering or misinterpreting, but it seems like you really need an LLC with a mail forwarding service and a cheap second phone line just to avoid the App Store sending the whole internet to your personal phone and address. For something free I can get why this would seem unreasonable (modulo scams, for which this is a hoop I would rather have than not), but if money's involved, a consumer should be able to contact a human and be made whole, and having the money be handled by a company (even if that company is just a one-man-show) honestly does not seem unreasonable. If you want to bypass that, you just shouldn't publish to the App Store, which does (or at least is supposed to) have protections suitable for most people. You should still be able to make apps and use them without the App Store involved, then the individual human who wants that app can make decisions based in the specific app in question and the people behind it, but that's a separate conversation.

zacwest 3mo ago
Developers cannot issue refunds from the Apple App Store. Contacting the developer by physical mail doesn’t have any effect.
- Telaneo 3mo ago
  > Developers cannot issue refunds from the Apple App Store. That sounds like something that needs to be fixed. > Contacting the developer by physical mail doesn’t have any effect. Ditto.
  - Grombobulous 3mo ago
    Correct! In my other comment within the greater thread I detail how conceptually the App Store should be shouldering more of the burden considering they sell in a retail-like arrangement.
Grombobulous 3mo ago
Yes, you’re right that much of this only comes up when you’re trying to charge money for an app. However, if you’re running your own website you can make those decisions on your own without being forced into most of them. Plenty of very large “reputable” companies obfuscate their physical address and phone number, and don’t even offer an email address for contact. I’d also say that this shouldn’t be as necessary when an app platform is involved. Apple takes 15-30% of the revenue and acts as a full retailer. Why do App Store customers have any need to contact the underlying developers in this scenario? Walmart doesn’t make it easy/possible for me to contact the manufacturer of their t-shirts. There are even other digital software stores like GOG or Steam that really aren’t selling you software that has a guaranteed point of contact. Those platforms just have a half-decent to decent return policy and act as the middleman. But when you’re on iOS you have all the burdens of a third-party supplier without all the benefits.
- Telaneo 3mo ago
  > Plenty of very large “reputable” companies obfuscate their physical address and phone number, and don’t even offer an email address for contact. This is whataboutism. They should do that too. The fact they don't isn't an excuse for smaller devs or companies. > I’d also say that this shouldn’t be as necessary when an app platform is involved. Apple takes 15-30% of the revenue and acts as a full retailer. Why do App Store customers have any need to contact the underlying developers in this scenario? You should be able to contact the underlying manufacturer or whatever of any product you buy. Why should programs be different? > Walmart doesn’t make it easy/possible for me to contact the manufacturer of their t-shirts. They should. > There are even other digital software stores like GOG or Steam that really aren’t selling you software that has a guaranteed point of contact. More whataboutism. You should have a guaranteed point of contact for what you buy there too.
  - Grombobulous 3mo ago
    How far down does this go? Should I be able to contact the individual person who picked the specific strawberries in my carton of strawberries? In the Walmart t-shirt example, should I have the contact info for not only the factory but the other suppliers who made the dyes, threads, cotton, the people who made the fuel for the harvester, the people who welded the tractor together? Sure, maybe your idealist answer is yes, and on a conceptual level I can agree with that. But from a practical standpoint as the end consumer there is a stopping point. My point is that Apple handles the money and the refunds, and they make all the software APIs. Completely closed platform. Why doesn’t the buck stop there? I feel like they pass along business responsibilities despite taking a large percentage of revenue. If they’re going to pass on all those responsibilities for me then their cut should be more like ~5% to just cover transaction and platform costs.
    - Telaneo 3mo ago
      > How far down does this go? Should I be able to contact the individual person who picked the specific strawberries in my carton of strawberries? Down to the manufacturer of the whole product you're buying. In the case of your strawberries that would probably be the farmer. > In the Walmart t-shirt example, should I have the contact info for not only the factory but the other suppliers who made the dyes, threads, cotton, the people who made the fuel for the harvester, the people who welded the tractor together? No. > Sure, maybe your idealist answer is yes, but from a practical standpoint as the end consumer there is a stopping point. Of course there is. But you as the sole dev of an app are not at that point. > My point is that Apple handles the money and the refunds, and they make all the software APIs. Completely closed platform. Why doesn’t the buck stop there? My local electronics shop also handles the money and refunds when I buy a Dell. I can still get a refund directly from Dell if my machine breaks (not that I actually have a Dell). Yay reasonable laws. The platform being closed and all the APIs being controlled by Apple are different problems that should be solved separately (which the EU is working on!).
cyral 3mo ago
> a consumer should be able to contact a human and be made whole Apple does not provide any mechanism for developers to issue a refund, or even look up or view your purchase or subscription - so there is nothing a developer can do here besides refer you to apple support. (Although as a developer I would like to be able to do this, because customers are very confused by it)
- Telaneo 3mo ago
  Sounds like something Apples needs to be fix then.
drdexebtjl 3mo ago
I would want that hoop for free apps too. If the developer is, for example, found to be mishandling private data, or maybe sharing my intellectual property, someone needs to answer for it.
david422 3mo ago
> For something free I can get why this would seem unreasonable (modulo scams, for which this is a hoop I would rather have than not), but if money's involved, a consumer should be able to contact a human and be made whole, and having the money be handled by a company (even if that company is just a one-man-show) honestly does not seem unreasonable. You're buying a digital good. You can already get refunds. An email address is fine for contact. You definitely don't need someone's physical home address, nor an actual phone number.
- Telaneo 3mo ago
  I don't need a physical address nor a phone number to get a refund from my local electronics store either, but I do believe they should be available.
  - demosthanos 3mo ago
    Apple is the analog to the local electronics store. They're the ones with the direct relationship with you, they're the ones you paid, they took a 30% cut off the app developer's top line explicitly under the pretext that they handle the whole store arrangement. And sure enough, they are in fact the ones who can issue a refund if you need one. The developer cannot. By design.
    - Telaneo 3mo ago
      > Apple is the analog to the local electronics store. They're the ones with the direct relationship with you, they're the ones you paid, they took a 30% cut off the app developer's top line explicitly under the pretext that they handle the whole store arrangement. Yet I can also ask Dell for a refund despite buying my Dell at my local electronics store. Both should be reachable and both should be able to give me a refund if my item is broken. > And sure enough, they are in fact the ones who can issue a refund if you need one. The developer cannot. By design. And Apple should fix that.
      - demosthanos 3mo ago

by Telaneo 3mo ago

zacwest 3mo ago

Developers cannot issue refunds from the Apple App Store. Contacting the developer by physical mail doesn’t have any effect.

Telaneo 3mo ago
> Developers cannot issue refunds from the Apple App Store. That sounds like something that needs to be fixed. > Contacting the developer by physical mail doesn’t have any effect. Ditto.
- Grombobulous 3mo ago
  Correct! In my other comment within the greater thread I detail how conceptually the App Store should be shouldering more of the burden considering they sell in a retail-like arrangement.

Grombobulous 3mo ago

Yes, you’re right that much of this only comes up when you’re trying to charge money for an app. However, if you’re running your own website you can make those decisions on your own without being forced into most of them. Plenty of very large “reputable” companies obfuscate their physical address and phone number, and don’t even offer an email address for contact. I’d also say that this shouldn’t be as necessary when an app platform is involved. Apple takes 15-30% of the revenue and acts as a full retailer. Why do App Store customers have any need to contact the underlying developers in this scenario? Walmart doesn’t make it easy/possible for me to contact the manufacturer of their t-shirts. There are even other digital software stores like GOG or Steam that really aren’t selling you software that has a guaranteed point of contact. Those platforms just have a half-decent to decent return policy and act as the middleman. But when you’re on iOS you have all the burdens of a third-party supplier without all the benefits.

Telaneo 3mo ago
> Plenty of very large “reputable” companies obfuscate their physical address and phone number, and don’t even offer an email address for contact. This is whataboutism. They should do that too. The fact they don't isn't an excuse for smaller devs or companies. > I’d also say that this shouldn’t be as necessary when an app platform is involved. Apple takes 15-30% of the revenue and acts as a full retailer. Why do App Store customers have any need to contact the underlying developers in this scenario? You should be able to contact the underlying manufacturer or whatever of any product you buy. Why should programs be different? > Walmart doesn’t make it easy/possible for me to contact the manufacturer of their t-shirts. They should. > There are even other digital software stores like GOG or Steam that really aren’t selling you software that has a guaranteed point of contact. More whataboutism. You should have a guaranteed point of contact for what you buy there too.
- Grombobulous 3mo ago
  How far down does this go? Should I be able to contact the individual person who picked the specific strawberries in my carton of strawberries? In the Walmart t-shirt example, should I have the contact info for not only the factory but the other suppliers who made the dyes, threads, cotton, the people who made the fuel for the harvester, the people who welded the tractor together? Sure, maybe your idealist answer is yes, and on a conceptual level I can agree with that. But from a practical standpoint as the end consumer there is a stopping point. My point is that Apple handles the money and the refunds, and they make all the software APIs. Completely closed platform. Why doesn’t the buck stop there? I feel like they pass along business responsibilities despite taking a large percentage of revenue. If they’re going to pass on all those responsibilities for me then their cut should be more like ~5% to just cover transaction and platform costs.
  - Telaneo 3mo ago
    > How far down does this go? Should I be able to contact the individual person who picked the specific strawberries in my carton of strawberries? Down to the manufacturer of the whole product you're buying. In the case of your strawberries that would probably be the farmer. > In the Walmart t-shirt example, should I have the contact info for not only the factory but the other suppliers who made the dyes, threads, cotton, the people who made the fuel for the harvester, the people who welded the tractor together? No. > Sure, maybe your idealist answer is yes, but from a practical standpoint as the end consumer there is a stopping point. Of course there is. But you as the sole dev of an app are not at that point. > My point is that Apple handles the money and the refunds, and they make all the software APIs. Completely closed platform. Why doesn’t the buck stop there? My local electronics shop also handles the money and refunds when I buy a Dell. I can still get a refund directly from Dell if my machine breaks (not that I actually have a Dell). Yay reasonable laws. The platform being closed and all the APIs being controlled by Apple are different problems that should be solved separately (which the EU is working on!).

cyral 3mo ago

> a consumer should be able to contact a human and be made whole Apple does not provide any mechanism for developers to issue a refund, or even look up or view your purchase or subscription - so there is nothing a developer can do here besides refer you to apple support. (Although as a developer I would like to be able to do this, because customers are very confused by it)

Telaneo 3mo ago
Sounds like something Apples needs to be fix then.

drdexebtjl 3mo ago

I would want that hoop for free apps too. If the developer is, for example, found to be mishandling private data, or maybe sharing my intellectual property, someone needs to answer for it.

david422 3mo ago

> For something free I can get why this would seem unreasonable (modulo scams, for which this is a hoop I would rather have than not), but if money's involved, a consumer should be able to contact a human and be made whole, and having the money be handled by a company (even if that company is just a one-man-show) honestly does not seem unreasonable. You're buying a digital good. You can already get refunds. An email address is fine for contact. You definitely don't need someone's physical home address, nor an actual phone number.

Telaneo 3mo ago
I don't need a physical address nor a phone number to get a refund from my local electronics store either, but I do believe they should be available.
- demosthanos 3mo ago
  Apple is the analog to the local electronics store. They're the ones with the direct relationship with you, they're the ones you paid, they took a 30% cut off the app developer's top line explicitly under the pretext that they handle the whole store arrangement. And sure enough, they are in fact the ones who can issue a refund if you need one. The developer cannot. By design.
  - Telaneo 3mo ago
    > Apple is the analog to the local electronics store. They're the ones with the direct relationship with you, they're the ones you paid, they took a 30% cut off the app developer's top line explicitly under the pretext that they handle the whole store arrangement. Yet I can also ask Dell for a refund despite buying my Dell at my local electronics store. Both should be reachable and both should be able to give me a refund if my item is broken. > And sure enough, they are in fact the ones who can issue a refund if you need one. The developer cannot. By design. And Apple should fix that.
    - demosthanos 3mo ago