5 ms·

We were supposed to be in the age of PWAs. That was the initial plan for iOS before the app store and 30% cuts on subscription apps. Most web apps suck too tho

by datakan 3mo ago

We were supposed to be in the age of PWAs. That was the initial plan for iOS before the app store and 30% cuts on subscription apps. Most web apps suck too though so I guess pick your poison. My strong belief is they want apps because they can spam you with notifications to get your attention.

brabel 3mo ago
> My strong belief is they want apps because they can spam you with notifications to get your attention. I believe the same about the Youtube App, I just can't see why else it exists and I hate the video links try to open in the app if you're not careful!
- smallpipe 3mo ago
  Casting from the web doesn’t work (on iOS at least) but that’s all I can think of.
  - echoangle 3mo ago
    AirPlay should work for every native video element, or do you mean something like chromecast?
    - jorisw 3mo ago
      YouTube obfuscates the native video by removing the controls. Vinegar is a Safari extension that fixes that on iOS and macOS. May exist for other browsers as well.
  - craftkiller 3mo ago
    Chromecast from desktop chromium works, so there's no reason they couldn't make the universal turing machine in my pocket do the same.
    - reddalo 3mo ago
      Desktop Chromium is Chrome. iOS Chrome is just Safari with a different interface. Apple doesn't let other browsers use their own engine on iOS (unless you are located in the EU).
      - craftkiller 3mo ago
        > iOS Chrome is just Safari with a different interface uhh wow. How did Microsoft face antitrust lawsuits for merely bundling IE when Apple is literally forcing their browser?
        Gander5739 3mo ago
        Due to EU regulation, you can use a different browser engine in the EU (and I think Japan too), but thus far none have been developed (it's too much work to maintain two versions of the browser).
        spogbiper 3mo ago
        i've often wondered how Apple gets away with things like this, I guess its because they never gained the marketshare that Microsoft had
- LoganDark 3mo ago
  Apps are also more difficult to intercept and modify on most devices. Companies like them because it means you can't use ad blockers or other privacy tools. It's also why they flip out so outrageously when Apple adds privacy tools at the operating system level, because tracking and abuse are most of the reason why apps are useful to them in the first place.
- jaffa2 3mo ago
  uninstall the app. my life is much better since i uninstalled most apps and I just use the web pages these days. To take ONE benefit from not using the youtube app, and instead using a browser: I can open more than one video at once.
  - IIsi50MHz 3mo ago
    > can open more than one video at once. And a nice side-effect of that is that YouTube doesn't throw away the list of other videos on the page you came from!
- ForHackernews 3mo ago
  NewPipe mostly works except when Google breaks it.
  - dizhn 3mo ago
    There's nothing sinister there. Google is merely trying to break their own app in new user hostile ways and everything else breaking is collateral damage. :)
- cube00 3mo ago
  > I hate the video links try to open in the app if you're not careful! Uninstall (disable) the app, YouTube on Firefox mobile is fine.
dec0dedab0de 3mo ago
sure, but that original idea was 20 years ago.
forlorn 3mo ago
They want apps so they could fingerprint your device, spy on you and get a lot more information than a web app.
- jorisw 3mo ago
  Sure. They. They want. You know who they are, and what they want.
  - close04 3mo ago
    No need to play games and intentionally be obtuse all across the thread. "They" are the developers. A website has far less access to a device than an app and ads are easier to block. So they wrap anything into an app to gain that access and make ad money.
    - jorisw 3mo ago
      What access? Like the OS native APIs that offer the very utility for these apps to even exist? Integration with OS features is what made the app ecosystem, because of utility. Project whatever conspiracy on that you want.
      - close04 3mo ago
        > Project whatever conspiracy on that you want You think a developer making money from their app is a conspiracy? Or that apps track you and developers monetize that data is one? I don't think you're being intentionally obtuse anymore.
      - NiloCK 3mo ago
        > What access? Push notifications. > Integration with OS features is what made the app ecosystem, because of utility. This is true of some apps, like the beer-drinking one that uses the accelerometer / other orientation sensors. It's not true of a large number of other apps, hence the "your app could have been a webpage" charge. This is distinct from "every app could be a webpage".
jorisw 3mo ago
> they want Who are 'they' and how do you know what they want
- pluralmonad 3mo ago
  The people deciding between delivering their payload via app or web page. Engagement hacking is not something we have to guess that ad companies want.
  - jorisw 3mo ago
    Ad companies now. Just one sentence earlier you said it's people 'delivering their payload'.
    - pluralmonad 3mo ago
      Yes, ad (supported) companies are a large subset of the former. I am not sure what point you are attempting to make.
      - jorisw 3mo ago
        Ad supported apps are not necessarily from ad companies. The point I'm trying to make that these ever-prevalent 'they just want' remarks are superficial, uninformed, overly broad, and vague, to the point of having no point. There are many benefits to native apps over web apps on mobile devices, depending on the use case. A conspiracy against the people need not be part of every developer's choice to utilize the native platform and associated app store for distribution. I know there's lots of horrible companies out there (hi Meta!) who will drive you to their native apps just for performance of ads and 'engagement'. This doesn't justify the conspiracy thinking getting applied to native apps as a whole.
        pluralmonad 3mo ago
        Ad tech comes with a whole bundle of mal-incentives, like engagement hacking. If you are supported by ad revenue then your primary job is to get your users to look at ads. That's an ad company, for our purposes here.
mr_mitm 3mo ago
I'm currently attempting to write a calendar app for personal use, and I wanted to go the route of a self-host PWA. Notifications are a good point. How can I create notifications as a reminder before an event? Alerts are part of the icalendar standard ("VALARM"), so these are clearly notifications that are wanted by the user. Is that even possible for a PWA?
- whstl 3mo ago
  You can send notifications with PWAs with Web Push API + Service Worker, same as a regular page. But, AFAIK, you need the server for push, though. It used to be possible to program entirely from the client with this proposed feature but AFAIK it's abandoned: https://github.com/GoogleChrome/developer.chrome.com//blob/main/site/en/docs/web-platform/notification-triggers/index.md https://github.com/GoogleChrome/developer.chrome.com//blob/m...
  - mr_mitm 3mo ago
    > You can send notifications with PWAs with Web Push API + Service Worker, same as a regular page. While the app is awake, sure. I'd like notifications to work even if the OS backgrounded the app, and even without a network connection, like I'd expect a reminder to work. > https://github.com/GoogleChrome/developer.chrome.com//blob/main/site/en/docs/web-platform/notification-triggers/index.md https://github.com/GoogleChrome/developer.chrome.com//blob/m... Looks like this is what I need and it doesn't exist. So the short answer is "no". Thanks for the link!
    - whstl 3mo ago
      > While the app is awake, sure. That's not true. The browser's push service wakes the service worker on delivery, even if the PWA is fully closed. That's the entire point of Push API vs polling.
      - mr_mitm 3mo ago
        And the OS will never background the browser for battery optimization reasons? Genuine question, I'm not an expert on mobile OSs (as you already guessed).
doginasuit 3mo ago
> My strong belief is they want apps because they can spam you with notifications to get your attention. That's it, an app installed on a mobile device is a much more effective attentional hook than a website that must be either bookmarked or remembered. It is like inviting a door-to-door salesman to your house, of course they will take the invitation.
- z3c0 3mo ago
  Also, analytics are not limited by JavaScript and browser APIs. Getting your attention isn't so valuable without knowing how to do it a second time.
harryf 3mo ago
We are in the age of PWAs. I've created a few where I just host them on Github pages (no backend needed, no hosting costs). And the P in PWA has become "Personal" ... vibe coding apps with no backend for non-developers for their _personal_ needs e.g. a create a job hunting app for my son specific to the types of jobs he's looking for. If I update it, it updates on his phone plus he can sync to his laptop via WebRTC.
benoau 3mo ago
> My strong belief is they want apps because they can spam you with notifications to get your attention. My strong belief is they realized people were prone to spending absurd amounts of money in Facebook games, so they hijacked "social gaming" and spent 20 years deteriorating in defense of it. Consider this timeline: - Apple launches iPhone in 2007 with web apps central - Zynga launches "Zynga Poker" on FB in 2007 - Apple launches App Store in 2008 with single-purchase apps - Zynga hits 40 million monthly users in 2009 - Apple implements IAP and defensive policies in 2009 - Hundreds of millions of people playing Facebook games in 2010 ... Apple goes to war with, bans and eventually kills Flash, the core technology to these games, and all of it moves to mobile and IAP ... web apps deprioritized, arms race with other browsers prevented
polycancel 3mo ago
With the state of current Android locking down to iOS level of closeness ( https://keepandroidopen.org https://keepandroidopen.org ) Since my last smart phone broke, I have held out on getting a smart phone for personal use. Sure for doing professional stuff for work, I'll use the work phone, but NOT going to pay my own money to get a surveillance device now. If you are a business, and the you don't have a web site working, then yeah too bad. Until Ubuntu Touch or something similar catches up and can run on old smart phone in a reliable way (not having to hunt down ROM like LineageOS ) it will be going back to before 2007 for me. It is more inconvenient sometimes, but life is also better in many ways.

by datakan 3mo ago

brabel 3mo ago

> My strong belief is they want apps because they can spam you with notifications to get your attention. I believe the same about the Youtube App, I just can't see why else it exists and I hate the video links try to open in the app if you're not careful!

smallpipe 3mo ago
Casting from the web doesn’t work (on iOS at least) but that’s all I can think of.
- echoangle 3mo ago
  AirPlay should work for every native video element, or do you mean something like chromecast?
  - jorisw 3mo ago
    YouTube obfuscates the native video by removing the controls. Vinegar is a Safari extension that fixes that on iOS and macOS. May exist for other browsers as well.
- craftkiller 3mo ago
  Chromecast from desktop chromium works, so there's no reason they couldn't make the universal turing machine in my pocket do the same.
  - reddalo 3mo ago
    Desktop Chromium is Chrome. iOS Chrome is just Safari with a different interface. Apple doesn't let other browsers use their own engine on iOS (unless you are located in the EU).
    - craftkiller 3mo ago
      > iOS Chrome is just Safari with a different interface uhh wow. How did Microsoft face antitrust lawsuits for merely bundling IE when Apple is literally forcing their browser?
      - Gander5739 3mo ago
        Due to EU regulation, you can use a different browser engine in the EU (and I think Japan too), but thus far none have been developed (it's too much work to maintain two versions of the browser).
      - spogbiper 3mo ago
        i've often wondered how Apple gets away with things like this, I guess its because they never gained the marketshare that Microsoft had
LoganDark 3mo ago
Apps are also more difficult to intercept and modify on most devices. Companies like them because it means you can't use ad blockers or other privacy tools. It's also why they flip out so outrageously when Apple adds privacy tools at the operating system level, because tracking and abuse are most of the reason why apps are useful to them in the first place.
jaffa2 3mo ago
uninstall the app. my life is much better since i uninstalled most apps and I just use the web pages these days. To take ONE benefit from not using the youtube app, and instead using a browser: I can open more than one video at once.
- IIsi50MHz 3mo ago
  > can open more than one video at once. And a nice side-effect of that is that YouTube doesn't throw away the list of other videos on the page you came from!
ForHackernews 3mo ago
NewPipe mostly works except when Google breaks it.
- dizhn 3mo ago
  There's nothing sinister there. Google is merely trying to break their own app in new user hostile ways and everything else breaking is collateral damage. :)
cube00 3mo ago
> I hate the video links try to open in the app if you're not careful! Uninstall (disable) the app, YouTube on Firefox mobile is fine.

dec0dedab0de 3mo ago

sure, but that original idea was 20 years ago.

forlorn 3mo ago

They want apps so they could fingerprint your device, spy on you and get a lot more information than a web app.

jorisw 3mo ago
Sure. They. They want. You know who they are, and what they want.
- close04 3mo ago
  No need to play games and intentionally be obtuse all across the thread. "They" are the developers. A website has far less access to a device than an app and ads are easier to block. So they wrap anything into an app to gain that access and make ad money.
  - jorisw 3mo ago
    What access? Like the OS native APIs that offer the very utility for these apps to even exist? Integration with OS features is what made the app ecosystem, because of utility. Project whatever conspiracy on that you want.
    - close04 3mo ago
      > Project whatever conspiracy on that you want You think a developer making money from their app is a conspiracy? Or that apps track you and developers monetize that data is one? I don't think you're being intentionally obtuse anymore.
    - NiloCK 3mo ago
      > What access? Push notifications. > Integration with OS features is what made the app ecosystem, because of utility. This is true of some apps, like the beer-drinking one that uses the accelerometer / other orientation sensors. It's not true of a large number of other apps, hence the "your app could have been a webpage" charge. This is distinct from "every app could be a webpage".

jorisw 3mo ago

> they want Who are 'they' and how do you know what they want

pluralmonad 3mo ago
The people deciding between delivering their payload via app or web page. Engagement hacking is not something we have to guess that ad companies want.
- jorisw 3mo ago
  Ad companies now. Just one sentence earlier you said it's people 'delivering their payload'.
  - pluralmonad 3mo ago
    Yes, ad (supported) companies are a large subset of the former. I am not sure what point you are attempting to make.
    - jorisw 3mo ago
      Ad supported apps are not necessarily from ad companies. The point I'm trying to make that these ever-prevalent 'they just want' remarks are superficial, uninformed, overly broad, and vague, to the point of having no point. There are many benefits to native apps over web apps on mobile devices, depending on the use case. A conspiracy against the people need not be part of every developer's choice to utilize the native platform and associated app store for distribution. I know there's lots of horrible companies out there (hi Meta!) who will drive you to their native apps just for performance of ads and 'engagement'. This doesn't justify the conspiracy thinking getting applied to native apps as a whole.
      - pluralmonad 3mo ago
        Ad tech comes with a whole bundle of mal-incentives, like engagement hacking. If you are supported by ad revenue then your primary job is to get your users to look at ads. That's an ad company, for our purposes here.

mr_mitm 3mo ago

I'm currently attempting to write a calendar app for personal use, and I wanted to go the route of a self-host PWA. Notifications are a good point. How can I create notifications as a reminder before an event? Alerts are part of the icalendar standard ("VALARM"), so these are clearly notifications that are wanted by the user. Is that even possible for a PWA?

whstl 3mo ago
You can send notifications with PWAs with Web Push API + Service Worker, same as a regular page. But, AFAIK, you need the server for push, though. It used to be possible to program entirely from the client with this proposed feature but AFAIK it's abandoned: https://github.com/GoogleChrome/developer.chrome.com//blob/main/site/en/docs/web-platform/notification-triggers/index.md https://github.com/GoogleChrome/developer.chrome.com//blob/m...
- mr_mitm 3mo ago
  > You can send notifications with PWAs with Web Push API + Service Worker, same as a regular page. While the app is awake, sure. I'd like notifications to work even if the OS backgrounded the app, and even without a network connection, like I'd expect a reminder to work. > https://github.com/GoogleChrome/developer.chrome.com//blob/main/site/en/docs/web-platform/notification-triggers/index.md https://github.com/GoogleChrome/developer.chrome.com//blob/m... Looks like this is what I need and it doesn't exist. So the short answer is "no". Thanks for the link!
  - whstl 3mo ago
    > While the app is awake, sure. That's not true. The browser's push service wakes the service worker on delivery, even if the PWA is fully closed. That's the entire point of Push API vs polling.
    - mr_mitm 3mo ago
      And the OS will never background the browser for battery optimization reasons? Genuine question, I'm not an expert on mobile OSs (as you already guessed).

doginasuit 3mo ago

> My strong belief is they want apps because they can spam you with notifications to get your attention. That's it, an app installed on a mobile device is a much more effective attentional hook than a website that must be either bookmarked or remembered. It is like inviting a door-to-door salesman to your house, of course they will take the invitation.

z3c0 3mo ago
Also, analytics are not limited by JavaScript and browser APIs. Getting your attention isn't so valuable without knowing how to do it a second time.

harryf 3mo ago

We are in the age of PWAs. I've created a few where I just host them on Github pages (no backend needed, no hosting costs). And the P in PWA has become "Personal" ... vibe coding apps with no backend for non-developers for their _personal_ needs e.g. a create a job hunting app for my son specific to the types of jobs he's looking for. If I update it, it updates on his phone plus he can sync to his laptop via WebRTC.

benoau 3mo ago

> My strong belief is they want apps because they can spam you with notifications to get your attention. My strong belief is they realized people were prone to spending absurd amounts of money in Facebook games, so they hijacked "social gaming" and spent 20 years deteriorating in defense of it. Consider this timeline: - Apple launches iPhone in 2007 with web apps central - Zynga launches "Zynga Poker" on FB in 2007 - Apple launches App Store in 2008 with single-purchase apps - Zynga hits 40 million monthly users in 2009 - Apple implements IAP and defensive policies in 2009 - Hundreds of millions of people playing Facebook games in 2010 ... Apple goes to war with, bans and eventually kills Flash, the core technology to these games, and all of it moves to mobile and IAP ... web apps deprioritized, arms race with other browsers prevented

polycancel 3mo ago

With the state of current Android locking down to iOS level of closeness ( https://keepandroidopen.org https://keepandroidopen.org ) Since my last smart phone broke, I have held out on getting a smart phone for personal use. Sure for doing professional stuff for work, I'll use the work phone, but NOT going to pay my own money to get a surveillance device now. If you are a business, and the you don't have a web site working, then yeah too bad. Until Ubuntu Touch or something similar catches up and can run on old smart phone in a reliable way (not having to hunt down ROM like LineageOS ) it will be going back to before 2007 for me. It is more inconvenient sometimes, but life is also better in many ways.