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I know I'm judging, but wow, MIT students (for how smart they are in general) are not the most self-confident bunch... 9-21% of students think that next to the

I know I'm judging, but wow, MIT students (for how smart they are in general) are not the most self-confident bunch... 9-21% of students think that next to the AVERAGE, their accomplishments are impressive. I expected this to be skewed above 50%. I wonder what response sets for this survey would be like at other schools.

ScottBurson 14y ago
Yes, and only 31% consider themselves above average academically. I have to laugh, but it's also sad that so many MIT students feel so insecure. I think it must be the shock that comes from being at the top of one's high school, then arriving at MIT and no longer being head-and-shoulders above most of one's peers. Anyway, maybe the administration should see if there's something they can do to give students a more realistic view of where they stand.
- iamwil 14y ago
  I came here to point that out as well. But I was thinking it was a good thing, rather than a bunch of fools playing out the Dunning–Kruger effect. One of the more valuable things you can learn as a smart kid in college is that you're not the smartest kid around. It also means that they're being challenged at the school. There's plenty of schools that are hard to get in, but there's no challenge after you're in. Besides, I don't know about you, but I can't stand people that think (or pretend) they're heads and shoulders above in ability when they're not. http://tech.mit.edu/V132/N59/pressure/breakdown/year/index.htm http://tech.mit.edu/V132/N59/pressure/breakdown/year/index.h...
  - bmiranda 14y ago
    For me personally, most of the stress does come from being challenged academically.The professors pull no punches, and some of the classes are downright exhausting. Although I appreciate being challenged, it can be disheartening whenever I observe the local coding guru / math major knocking out problems in a fraction of the time it takes me. However, I believe that this student response best sums it up: "I still believe it’s true that at MIT, students generally compete more against themselves than against each other." Everyone simply wants to be the best that they can be. - MIT Sophomore in EECS
  - raphman 14y ago
    Dunning and Kruger also found that people with above-average competence rate their own competence lower than it actually is.
- pdonis 14y ago
  I think it must be the shock that comes from being at the top of one's high school, then arriving at MIT and no longer being head-and-shoulders above most of one's peers. It's been a while since I was at MIT, but this was my experience and that of a lot of the people I knew there. I have to admit, though, that if I had taken a survey like this while I was there, I would have rated myself above average. :-) maybe the administration should see if there's something they can do to give students a more realistic view of where they stand. Many of the courses I took, at least for the first couple of years, were graded on a curve, so you could tell where you stood, at least roughly, by your grade. Perhaps that's less prevalent now.
  - ScottBurson 14y ago
    > I would have rated myself above average. :-) Yeah, me too :-) (Class of 1980)
- kellegous 14y ago
  I can relate to this during my time at MIT. It isn't that students are unaware that MIT is an immensely talented community and just fail to put their own relative difficulties into perspective. There is a strong desire to feel like you belong among your peers. Yet there is always someone doing something that seems out of your reach, which amplifies those lingering internal questions of whether your actually good enough to be there.
- rizzom5000 14y ago
  I doubt that we're talking about insecurity or lack of confidence; but rather the lack of a certain type of egotism. In my experience at least, gifted people tend to avoid egotism altogether.
- tzs 14y ago
  > I think it must be the shock that comes from being at the top of one's high school, then arriving at MIT and no longer being head-and-shoulders above most of one's peers. Yup. Some stats for a recent MIT entering class: 97% were in the top 10% of their high school class. 100% where in the top 25%. 25/75 percentile SAT math: 740/800 25/75 percentile SAT critical reading: 670/770 25/75 percentile SAT writing: 680/770 Only about 9% who apply to MIT are offered admission. I'd guess that the ones that get in aren't the ones who had to work hard for kind of scores listed above--they are the ones for whom those kind of high school achievements come easily, giving them time for the challenging projects and activities beyond the standard high school curriculum that made them stand out to the admissions people. They now have to actually work hard for "regular" classes. Half of them find that their best effort lands them in the bottom half of the class. That is indeed one hell of a shock.
- mayneack 14y ago
  A relevant note is that MIT doesn't release class ranks or average GPAs or anything like that. Personally, I think it's good because while people might think they're below average, I'm ok with them not worrying about the particular number.
pazimzadeh 14y ago
The self-confidence question: http://cl.ly/LQvB http://cl.ly/LQvB. Compared to the other students: http://cl.ly/LR7c http://cl.ly/LR7c.
GabrielF00 14y ago
MIT is the anti-Lake Wobegon. None of the children are above average.
jere 14y ago
Dunning-Kruger effect maybe? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect >Next to the average MIT student, I think my accomplishments are impressive. It's a subjective question and I don't think it's unreasonable that less than 20% of students have accomplishments that are more impressive than average.
jiggy2011 14y ago
That actually sounds kinda right. When people hear the phrase "above average" you probably interpret that to mean "noticeably better than most people" rather than "scored higher than the mean score". It would depend on what the distribution of ability looked like, it's quite possible that over 50% of any given class have scores/ability that are grouped very closely together to make the differences in scores fairly trivial. Then you have an elite group that are effectively bunched around a significantly higher mean and also a struggling group noticeably at the bottom. Being a few marks off a B will still make you a C student. This was certainly my experience at college, there was the "smart group" (which I wasn't in) and then there was everyone else. I'm sure there is a better way of describing this with statistical terminology.

ScottBurson 14y ago

Yes, and only 31% consider themselves above average academically. I have to laugh, but it's also sad that so many MIT students feel so insecure. I think it must be the shock that comes from being at the top of one's high school, then arriving at MIT and no longer being head-and-shoulders above most of one's peers. Anyway, maybe the administration should see if there's something they can do to give students a more realistic view of where they stand.

iamwil 14y ago
I came here to point that out as well. But I was thinking it was a good thing, rather than a bunch of fools playing out the Dunning–Kruger effect. One of the more valuable things you can learn as a smart kid in college is that you're not the smartest kid around. It also means that they're being challenged at the school. There's plenty of schools that are hard to get in, but there's no challenge after you're in. Besides, I don't know about you, but I can't stand people that think (or pretend) they're heads and shoulders above in ability when they're not. http://tech.mit.edu/V132/N59/pressure/breakdown/year/index.htm http://tech.mit.edu/V132/N59/pressure/breakdown/year/index.h...
- bmiranda 14y ago
  For me personally, most of the stress does come from being challenged academically.The professors pull no punches, and some of the classes are downright exhausting. Although I appreciate being challenged, it can be disheartening whenever I observe the local coding guru / math major knocking out problems in a fraction of the time it takes me. However, I believe that this student response best sums it up: "I still believe it’s true that at MIT, students generally compete more against themselves than against each other." Everyone simply wants to be the best that they can be. - MIT Sophomore in EECS
- raphman 14y ago
  Dunning and Kruger also found that people with above-average competence rate their own competence lower than it actually is.
pdonis 14y ago
I think it must be the shock that comes from being at the top of one's high school, then arriving at MIT and no longer being head-and-shoulders above most of one's peers. It's been a while since I was at MIT, but this was my experience and that of a lot of the people I knew there. I have to admit, though, that if I had taken a survey like this while I was there, I would have rated myself above average. :-) maybe the administration should see if there's something they can do to give students a more realistic view of where they stand. Many of the courses I took, at least for the first couple of years, were graded on a curve, so you could tell where you stood, at least roughly, by your grade. Perhaps that's less prevalent now.
- ScottBurson 14y ago
  > I would have rated myself above average. :-) Yeah, me too :-) (Class of 1980)
kellegous 14y ago
I can relate to this during my time at MIT. It isn't that students are unaware that MIT is an immensely talented community and just fail to put their own relative difficulties into perspective. There is a strong desire to feel like you belong among your peers. Yet there is always someone doing something that seems out of your reach, which amplifies those lingering internal questions of whether your actually good enough to be there.
rizzom5000 14y ago
I doubt that we're talking about insecurity or lack of confidence; but rather the lack of a certain type of egotism. In my experience at least, gifted people tend to avoid egotism altogether.
tzs 14y ago
> I think it must be the shock that comes from being at the top of one's high school, then arriving at MIT and no longer being head-and-shoulders above most of one's peers. Yup. Some stats for a recent MIT entering class: 97% were in the top 10% of their high school class. 100% where in the top 25%. 25/75 percentile SAT math: 740/800 25/75 percentile SAT critical reading: 670/770 25/75 percentile SAT writing: 680/770 Only about 9% who apply to MIT are offered admission. I'd guess that the ones that get in aren't the ones who had to work hard for kind of scores listed above--they are the ones for whom those kind of high school achievements come easily, giving them time for the challenging projects and activities beyond the standard high school curriculum that made them stand out to the admissions people. They now have to actually work hard for "regular" classes. Half of them find that their best effort lands them in the bottom half of the class. That is indeed one hell of a shock.
mayneack 14y ago
A relevant note is that MIT doesn't release class ranks or average GPAs or anything like that. Personally, I think it's good because while people might think they're below average, I'm ok with them not worrying about the particular number.

pazimzadeh 14y ago

The self-confidence question: http://cl.ly/LQvB http://cl.ly/LQvB. Compared to the other students: http://cl.ly/LR7c http://cl.ly/LR7c.

GabrielF00 14y ago

MIT is the anti-Lake Wobegon. None of the children are above average.

jere 14y ago

Dunning-Kruger effect maybe? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect >Next to the average MIT student, I think my accomplishments are impressive. It's a subjective question and I don't think it's unreasonable that less than 20% of students have accomplishments that are more impressive than average.

jiggy2011 14y ago

That actually sounds kinda right. When people hear the phrase "above average" you probably interpret that to mean "noticeably better than most people" rather than "scored higher than the mean score". It would depend on what the distribution of ability looked like, it's quite possible that over 50% of any given class have scores/ability that are grouped very closely together to make the differences in scores fairly trivial. Then you have an elite group that are effectively bunched around a significantly higher mean and also a struggling group noticeably at the bottom. Being a few marks off a B will still make you a C student. This was certainly my experience at college, there was the "smart group" (which I wasn't in) and then there was everyone else. I'm sure there is a better way of describing this with statistical terminology.