4 ms·

This is a very short-sighted, and exceedingly common, take. Until the machines aren't owned by anyone (or owned by everyone, take your pick on the phrasing), t

This is a very short-sighted, and exceedingly common, take. Until the machines aren't owned by anyone (or owned by everyone, take your pick on the phrasing), the owners of the machine have no need to keep you alive. This take is basically "Don't worry, people like Sam Altman are looking out for us"...

strken 3mo ago
It's quite a good metaphor. What used to happen to an old horse? How many horses do you see now that the world has moved to tractors[0]? I can't wait to be kept in agistment by my overlords, fed on treacle and oats, ridden in circles once a fortnight, and shot when I break a leg. [0] https://www.researchgate.net/figure/United-States-Farm-based-Horse-Population-1850-2007_fig1_254456029 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/United-States-Farm-based...
- defrost 3mo ago
  > I can't wait to be kept in agistment by my overlords, fed on treacle and oats, ridden in circles once a fortnight, and shot when I break a leg. Luxury horse living during the heyday of working horses and pit ponies, "horse power" wasn't left ideal for a fortnight. > How many horses do you see now that the world Personally, a surprising number perhaps, there's a pony club at the top of my street in town, and the area is still littered with horses and other livestock. This isn't my area, but it's not dissimilar: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45623799 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45623799 Full size image: https://live-production.wcms.abc-cdn.net.au/a26664f6500a7c748682a8fbefc87e40 https://live-production.wcms.abc-cdn.net.au/a26664f6500a7c74...
lowbloodsugar 3mo ago
Sure. But either way we aren’t going to have to worry about it. We’ll have post scarcity utopia, or we’ll have died. But there is an argument that the billionaire need to pay attention to: an ASI that kills 7 billion people won’t mind killing a few more.
- jambalaya8 3mo ago
  What happens in the space between when we think we have reached an equilibrium and an eventual incipient utopia, and whenever 9/10ths or whatever of the population is dead? What will AIs think of our fitness, anyway? Are we training them to be non-judgmental (and how is that safer or less safe?) and enforcing some weird idea of "equality"? Or are we teaching AIs to choose our choices for us, and our survivors, down the line? What will people be like when that time comes, anyway?
zkmon 3mo ago
Disparity in ownership of machines is not the main factor that is driving the need for work. It is the un-ending desire (or selling pressure) to have things that require money to buy. Most people work to be able to pay their loans and have things that are perceived to be common needs in their geography and culture. These "needs" are sometimes enforced by the systems and government so that people don't stay away from the work and "economy" keeps churning. The housing prices could be a way to keep the people working for loan payments. Instant foods, nursing homes for elderly, creches, roads, commuter trains - are all ways to have more workers and make them focused on work.
- lelanthran 3mo ago
  You are missing my point; if you have no value other than unthinking manual labour to offer the world, why would the world keep you alive? "Work" doesn't exist to keep people busy, it exists to keep them alive.
  - RandomLensman 3mo ago
    How is the "world"? Why does the "world" have that power? Machine owners don't have the power, for example.
    - nibbleyou 3mo ago
      If AGI can do everything and a few own the AGI, then they have that power. Even now the machine owners have enough power to change laws to their liking, bending governments and public opinion to their will.
      - RandomLensman 3mo ago
        Unless AGI has actual god-like powers, the owners don't have that power. Governments' and public opinion can change and are not so easy to control as you make it out to be. Is, for example, the EU AI Act or the GDPR the will of the machine owners? The odd thing is that after the pandemic just showed what societies can enforce, somehow it all is forgotten again when it comes to who holds what power.
globular-toast 3mo ago
But this assumes the ultimate "want" is "stuff" like houses, cars etc. But that's all just a means to an end or at least secondary to the real want, which is sex. For now at least, that requires people.
- mlrtime 3mo ago
  "Everything in the world is about sex, except sex. Sex is about power"
frozenseven 3mo ago
>owners of the machine have no need to keep you alive And what reason do they have for killing everyone else? Where is this abject nonsense even coming from? You can't just assert that the "owners of the machine" are all cartoonishly evil for some unknown reason. All else being equal, at least Sam Altman et al. aren't constantly making up fantasies about exterminating people.
- lelanthran 3mo ago
  > And what reason do they have for killing everyone else? Who said they would kill everyone else? Since the rest of your strawmanned caricatured argument is a response to an argument never made, there's no point in addressing it.
  - frozenseven 3mo ago
    Got it. You have no intention of defending what you actually said there.
    - lelanthran 3mo ago
      > Got it. You have no intention of defending what you actually said there. Who said anything about killing?
      - frozenseven 3mo ago
        What's the opposite of "keeping alive"? You've already set the scenario and power scale. Don't chicken out now. This is your sick fantasy.
- ndiddy 3mo ago
  Nobody's saying they'd actively round up and kill everyone, they would just have no reason to keep the "unnecessary" people alive. The elite class is generally in favor of doing things that worsen human suffering and cause additional deaths if doing so helps their financial position. See the recent cuts to SNAP and Medicaid for an example. If large swaths of the population got laid off from their jobs because they were no longer economically necessary, what incentive would the people benefiting from AI have to make a little less money in exchange for funding programs to keep the former white collar workers fed and healthy? They didn't do anything to help the former blue collar workers after they pushed for free trade deals that decimated the blue collar workforce.

strken 3mo ago

It's quite a good metaphor. What used to happen to an old horse? How many horses do you see now that the world has moved to tractors[0]? I can't wait to be kept in agistment by my overlords, fed on treacle and oats, ridden in circles once a fortnight, and shot when I break a leg. [0] https://www.researchgate.net/figure/United-States-Farm-based-Horse-Population-1850-2007_fig1_254456029 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/United-States-Farm-based...

defrost 3mo ago
> I can't wait to be kept in agistment by my overlords, fed on treacle and oats, ridden in circles once a fortnight, and shot when I break a leg. Luxury horse living during the heyday of working horses and pit ponies, "horse power" wasn't left ideal for a fortnight. > How many horses do you see now that the world Personally, a surprising number perhaps, there's a pony club at the top of my street in town, and the area is still littered with horses and other livestock. This isn't my area, but it's not dissimilar: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45623799 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45623799 Full size image: https://live-production.wcms.abc-cdn.net.au/a26664f6500a7c748682a8fbefc87e40 https://live-production.wcms.abc-cdn.net.au/a26664f6500a7c74...

lowbloodsugar 3mo ago

Sure. But either way we aren’t going to have to worry about it. We’ll have post scarcity utopia, or we’ll have died. But there is an argument that the billionaire need to pay attention to: an ASI that kills 7 billion people won’t mind killing a few more.

jambalaya8 3mo ago
What happens in the space between when we think we have reached an equilibrium and an eventual incipient utopia, and whenever 9/10ths or whatever of the population is dead? What will AIs think of our fitness, anyway? Are we training them to be non-judgmental (and how is that safer or less safe?) and enforcing some weird idea of "equality"? Or are we teaching AIs to choose our choices for us, and our survivors, down the line? What will people be like when that time comes, anyway?

zkmon 3mo ago

Disparity in ownership of machines is not the main factor that is driving the need for work. It is the un-ending desire (or selling pressure) to have things that require money to buy. Most people work to be able to pay their loans and have things that are perceived to be common needs in their geography and culture. These "needs" are sometimes enforced by the systems and government so that people don't stay away from the work and "economy" keeps churning. The housing prices could be a way to keep the people working for loan payments. Instant foods, nursing homes for elderly, creches, roads, commuter trains - are all ways to have more workers and make them focused on work.

lelanthran 3mo ago
You are missing my point; if you have no value other than unthinking manual labour to offer the world, why would the world keep you alive? "Work" doesn't exist to keep people busy, it exists to keep them alive.
- RandomLensman 3mo ago
  How is the "world"? Why does the "world" have that power? Machine owners don't have the power, for example.
  - nibbleyou 3mo ago
    If AGI can do everything and a few own the AGI, then they have that power. Even now the machine owners have enough power to change laws to their liking, bending governments and public opinion to their will.
    - RandomLensman 3mo ago
      Unless AGI has actual god-like powers, the owners don't have that power. Governments' and public opinion can change and are not so easy to control as you make it out to be. Is, for example, the EU AI Act or the GDPR the will of the machine owners? The odd thing is that after the pandemic just showed what societies can enforce, somehow it all is forgotten again when it comes to who holds what power.

globular-toast 3mo ago

But this assumes the ultimate "want" is "stuff" like houses, cars etc. But that's all just a means to an end or at least secondary to the real want, which is sex. For now at least, that requires people.

mlrtime 3mo ago
"Everything in the world is about sex, except sex. Sex is about power"

frozenseven 3mo ago

>owners of the machine have no need to keep you alive And what reason do they have for killing everyone else? Where is this abject nonsense even coming from? You can't just assert that the "owners of the machine" are all cartoonishly evil for some unknown reason. All else being equal, at least Sam Altman et al. aren't constantly making up fantasies about exterminating people.

lelanthran 3mo ago
> And what reason do they have for killing everyone else? Who said they would kill everyone else? Since the rest of your strawmanned caricatured argument is a response to an argument never made, there's no point in addressing it.
- frozenseven 3mo ago
  Got it. You have no intention of defending what you actually said there.
  - lelanthran 3mo ago
    > Got it. You have no intention of defending what you actually said there. Who said anything about killing?
    - frozenseven 3mo ago
      What's the opposite of "keeping alive"? You've already set the scenario and power scale. Don't chicken out now. This is your sick fantasy.
ndiddy 3mo ago
Nobody's saying they'd actively round up and kill everyone, they would just have no reason to keep the "unnecessary" people alive. The elite class is generally in favor of doing things that worsen human suffering and cause additional deaths if doing so helps their financial position. See the recent cuts to SNAP and Medicaid for an example. If large swaths of the population got laid off from their jobs because they were no longer economically necessary, what incentive would the people benefiting from AI have to make a little less money in exchange for funding programs to keep the former white collar workers fed and healthy? They didn't do anything to help the former blue collar workers after they pushed for free trade deals that decimated the blue collar workforce.