5 ms·

I asked an LLM to help me find the standard German equivalent for "hooche Leit", and it said "hohe Leute" 'high people' (here in the sense of 'fancy people'),

by schoen 3mo ago

I asked an LLM to help me find the standard German equivalent for "hooche Leit", and it said "hohe Leute" 'high people' (here in the sense of 'fancy people'), which of course doesn't have the same connotation, but that's the etymological sense.

unkeen 3mo ago
That would be "Höhergestellte" nowadays.
- em-bee 3mo ago
  "höhergestellte" are "superiors". "hohe leute" is more like "upper class people"
  - unkeen 3mo ago
    Traditionally, it also has the meaning of "Personen von höherem Stand", meaning upper class people.
  - panative 3mo ago
    That isn’t the sense it’s used in Pennsylvania at all. A side hill dirt farmer with one striped shirt he wears six days a week and goes to a Methodist church every Sunday and a mustache with his beard is “hoch” and a man who wears solid black and white with buttons and suspenders and no belt or mustache, drives a buggy to church at a district members house every other week and owns a mill that employs 500 people is a “Kirche/Plain” person.
    - em-bee 3mo ago
      can you elaborate please? the way i read this it directly contradicts what you say here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48903436 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48903436 “hooche Leit” is PA dialect for standard German “hohe Leute,” literally “high people” in the sense of “fancy” people but that supports what i said, because upper class people are also fancy.
      - wildfireday2 3mo ago
        “Fancy” is has a very specific meaning as as opposed to “plain” here and “upper class people are also fancy” is not generally true. “Plain” refers very specifically to lifestyle rules and modes of dress and sometimes speech adopted by conservative Anabaptists, most notably Amish, and historically, Quakers (very few of whom are meaningfully plain anymore although “simplicity” is still taught as a Quaker value). It has nothing to do with social class, there are many examples of plain peoples who were better off as a whole than their “fancy” neighbors. Fancy, in the context of plain people in America, is just anyone who lives according to the dominant culture or otherwise isn’t bound by the rules of plain people. Those being things like what kind of fasteners or colors you can have on your clothes, what kinds of hats men wear, head coverings and dress standards for women, etc., and for the Amish extending to bans on mains electricity, automobiles or self propelled vehicles, etc.
        ButlerianJihad 3mo ago
        Closely related, and not limited to the sects which you mention: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holiness_movement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holiness_movement
        wildfireday2 3mo ago
        They may have some theological distinctions but they aren’t related to the plain/fancy distinctions at all. Holiness/methodists are culturally extremely mainstream and Methodists have always been at the forefront of uniting church with “popular” worldly culture, as opposed to the separatism (in particular of culture down to dress and technology) of plain people. Holiness/Wesleyan people are “fancy.” So are almost all contemporary Quakers and many or most mainline Mennonites.
usrnm 3mo ago
Or "high lede" in English
carschno 3mo ago
Apologies for being nit-picky, but there is no etymological sense. The output of your LLM has the same etymological root, but a different meaning. In terms of translation, it is therefore plain wrong. Honestly, I was triggered to correct this comment mostly because it illustrates how we tend to explain away mistakes made by an LLM. It's not about subtle 'connotation', but the meaning is just incorrect. No offense meant to the poster, this is a trap the world has been falling into at scale for the past few years.
- panative 3mo ago
  I don’t know what you are nitpicking and we don’t have the prompt or output, but from first-hand knowledge that was basically correct. “hooche Leit” is PA dialect for standard German “hohe Leute,” literally “high people” in the sense of “fancy” people as opposed to plain people, as there used to be “plain Dutch” and “fancy Dutch” to refer to plain (Anabaptist) Pennsylvania Germans as opposed to other (now basically assimilated) German people in Pennsylvania. Commonly what her community and many other Deitsch-speaking communities call “hooche Leit” in Deitsch, they will often simply call “English” in English. From her description that’s probably fallen mostly out of use in her Libby community given their religious abandonment of the Ordnung.
  - lproven 3mo ago
    > the Ordnung What does that mean? (This entire thread is very hard for this Brit to follow. So many unknown words and whole concepts.)
    - pantalaimon 3mo ago
      the Order, as in community sharing/following a set of rules
      - panative 3mo ago
        As in understand it, the Ordnung are the rules themselves, but the rules are what create the community. They aren’t written down but they are collectively decided and determined and known within an individual district. Districts normally split due to growth rather than disagreements about the Ordnung but both can happen, and the Ordnung can develop differently from one district to another. An individual or family openly rejecting some aspect of the Ordnung can result in shunning/excommunication (though the intent is supposed to be for them to come back fully to the community, doesn’t have to be permanent, and it doesn’t always mean they are completely estranged).
fuckyah 3mo ago
[dead]

by schoen 3mo ago

unkeen 3mo ago

That would be "Höhergestellte" nowadays.

em-bee 3mo ago
"höhergestellte" are "superiors". "hohe leute" is more like "upper class people"
- unkeen 3mo ago
  Traditionally, it also has the meaning of "Personen von höherem Stand", meaning upper class people.
- panative 3mo ago
  That isn’t the sense it’s used in Pennsylvania at all. A side hill dirt farmer with one striped shirt he wears six days a week and goes to a Methodist church every Sunday and a mustache with his beard is “hoch” and a man who wears solid black and white with buttons and suspenders and no belt or mustache, drives a buggy to church at a district members house every other week and owns a mill that employs 500 people is a “Kirche/Plain” person.
  - em-bee 3mo ago
    can you elaborate please? the way i read this it directly contradicts what you say here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48903436 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48903436 “hooche Leit” is PA dialect for standard German “hohe Leute,” literally “high people” in the sense of “fancy” people but that supports what i said, because upper class people are also fancy.
    - wildfireday2 3mo ago
      “Fancy” is has a very specific meaning as as opposed to “plain” here and “upper class people are also fancy” is not generally true. “Plain” refers very specifically to lifestyle rules and modes of dress and sometimes speech adopted by conservative Anabaptists, most notably Amish, and historically, Quakers (very few of whom are meaningfully plain anymore although “simplicity” is still taught as a Quaker value). It has nothing to do with social class, there are many examples of plain peoples who were better off as a whole than their “fancy” neighbors. Fancy, in the context of plain people in America, is just anyone who lives according to the dominant culture or otherwise isn’t bound by the rules of plain people. Those being things like what kind of fasteners or colors you can have on your clothes, what kinds of hats men wear, head coverings and dress standards for women, etc., and for the Amish extending to bans on mains electricity, automobiles or self propelled vehicles, etc.
      - ButlerianJihad 3mo ago
        Closely related, and not limited to the sects which you mention: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holiness_movement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holiness_movement
        wildfireday2 3mo ago
        They may have some theological distinctions but they aren’t related to the plain/fancy distinctions at all. Holiness/methodists are culturally extremely mainstream and Methodists have always been at the forefront of uniting church with “popular” worldly culture, as opposed to the separatism (in particular of culture down to dress and technology) of plain people. Holiness/Wesleyan people are “fancy.” So are almost all contemporary Quakers and many or most mainline Mennonites.

usrnm 3mo ago

Or "high lede" in English

carschno 3mo ago

Apologies for being nit-picky, but there is no etymological sense. The output of your LLM has the same etymological root, but a different meaning. In terms of translation, it is therefore plain wrong. Honestly, I was triggered to correct this comment mostly because it illustrates how we tend to explain away mistakes made by an LLM. It's not about subtle 'connotation', but the meaning is just incorrect. No offense meant to the poster, this is a trap the world has been falling into at scale for the past few years.

panative 3mo ago
I don’t know what you are nitpicking and we don’t have the prompt or output, but from first-hand knowledge that was basically correct. “hooche Leit” is PA dialect for standard German “hohe Leute,” literally “high people” in the sense of “fancy” people as opposed to plain people, as there used to be “plain Dutch” and “fancy Dutch” to refer to plain (Anabaptist) Pennsylvania Germans as opposed to other (now basically assimilated) German people in Pennsylvania. Commonly what her community and many other Deitsch-speaking communities call “hooche Leit” in Deitsch, they will often simply call “English” in English. From her description that’s probably fallen mostly out of use in her Libby community given their religious abandonment of the Ordnung.
- lproven 3mo ago
  > the Ordnung What does that mean? (This entire thread is very hard for this Brit to follow. So many unknown words and whole concepts.)
  - pantalaimon 3mo ago
    the Order, as in community sharing/following a set of rules
    - panative 3mo ago
      As in understand it, the Ordnung are the rules themselves, but the rules are what create the community. They aren’t written down but they are collectively decided and determined and known within an individual district. Districts normally split due to growth rather than disagreements about the Ordnung but both can happen, and the Ordnung can develop differently from one district to another. An individual or family openly rejecting some aspect of the Ordnung can result in shunning/excommunication (though the intent is supposed to be for them to come back fully to the community, doesn’t have to be permanent, and it doesn’t always mean they are completely estranged).

fuckyah 3mo ago

[dead]