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I don't know much of anything about any other jurisdictions. I'm saying that my municipality took the cameras down with zero drama. I'm on one of its commission
by tptacek 4mo ago
I don't know much of anything about any other jurisdictions. I'm saying that my municipality took the cameras down with zero drama. I'm on one of its commissions with oversight on this.
(More precisely: there was drama, but it was all public drama from residents who didn't want the cameras taken down.)
- remarkEon 4mo agoCurious. Why didn’t they want them taken down?
- Spooky23 4mo agoThey do have a legitimate purpose and help to solve crimes. The network effect, funded by federal grants to make a surveillance infrastructure nationally is the biggest issue.
- lokar 4mo agoThis is the part that upsets me. They really could help solve crimes without sacrificing privacy.
- krupan 4mo agoHow? Whatever the system is now is clearly not preserving privacy
- lokar 4mo agoHave an independent non-profit with strong oversight manage the data. Grant access with a warrant. The police should show that a crime has likely been committed, and get access to just the data that probably has evidence.
- tptacek 4mo agoHow do you do a warrant for a device that alerts when a car on a hotlist transits an intersection?
- lokar 4mo agoRecord the plates. Don’t alert, search. And just for a specific crime.
- tptacek 4mo agoThe whole pitch for the cameras is alerting! The point is to interdict the cars right after they pass the camera.
- lokar 4mo agoThat may be what police like, but in my town it’s sold to residents on solving crimes.
- irishcoffee 4mo agoA stolen car is a crime though.
- lokar 4mo agoSure. So file a request with a judge including evidence that the car has been stolen, and a reasonable time window and location.
- krupan 4mo agoYou still have people with very tempting access to a whole lot of data. I don't see how this is different from the current situation other than it's just different (corruptible) people with access.
- 4mo ago
- Spooky23 4mo agoClosed loop systems that require explicit consent to share outside the organization. Flock is like 50x worse than NSA stuff like PRISM that everyone freaked out about. The Feds have full access to search everything, are no doubt exempt from any transparency on the platform, and ICE is already using it to abuse and intimidate political enemies. It’s a nationwide surveillance system posing as a local police tool.
- tptacek 4mo agoThey're pretty comparable in that the people most het up about them tend not to know what either actually was. The feds do not have full access to search everything on Flock's platform except through the same mechanism by which they'd have access to search literally anything (a court order).
- Spooky23 4mo agoFair. I’d argue that lack of friction is meaningful. Also, the Feds are creative in their application of the law. Things like HIDTA designated areas led to Flock-predecessors - scaled infrastructure deployed decades ago. One of the “drug corridors” is the I-95 corridor from Miami to Maine.
- tptacek 4mo agoEverybody is filter-bubbled and people on HN are profoundly filter-bubbled. Wait'll you find what a huge number of ordinary people think about NSA surveillance. The cameras apprehend criminals. I can show with evidence that the juice isn't worth the squeeze, and in fact that the cameras had the effect of tasking our police force with doing municipal debt collection for Melrose Park and Maywood, at the cost of 5-7 hours of sworn officer time per "failure to appear warrant" arrest. But supporters of the cameras will point to multiple stolen car interdictions and recovered firearms. If you go into these kinds of things assuming that the median resident of a municipality is anti-policing, you're already way, way off. And I find when I talk to anti-Flock advocates (that is: people who have "anti-Flock" as part of their personal identity, not just a person chosen at random who would happen to answer "no" to "should we ALPR") that many of them are operating from anti-policing premises, and so these kinds of responses are very surprising to them. (Totally reasonable for your reaction to this to be "whoah, that was a lot more than I asked for", I just feel like I've been in these kinds of conversations a lot. It's not personal.)