24 ms·

Go complements and sorta-kinda replaces Python for web programmers. Go replaces Java for Google and most other companies. Go was supposed to replace C++ but d

Go complements and sorta-kinda replaces Python for web programmers. Go replaces Java for Google and most other companies. Go was supposed to replace C++ but didn't even come close despite the best intentions of Pike and ken. Comical.

DigitalJack 14y ago
I am not a programmer by trade... but I'm a little confused as to why you would say Go can replace java but not c++? Is it just a speed thing?
- koko775 14y ago
  C++ gives you an insane amount of control, is exceedingly manual, hard to use, hard to learn, and you can easily screw yourself over by using it - but it gives you so much performance that it's worth the necessary expertise. Go tries to be safer and more automatic, like Java. While it's more organized and prescriptive than C or C++, it's less religious than Java about everything being a class. So it encourages the pragmatism and low-levelness of closer-to-the-metal languages while also abstracting out a lot of the details which get in the way of just writing systems.
  - myko 14y ago
    So the answer to the question is that C++ is just much more performant than Go in general?
    - codewright 14y ago
      It's principally about control, performance is a side effect related to control and abstractions.
  - afhof 14y ago
    I still can't grok why people pick C++. Is it just a Windows specific thing? If someone wanted speed of execution, why not use Ansi C? If someone wanted object oriented programming, why not the myriad other languages? (Java comes to mind) What does C++ do better than all the languages?
    - koko775 14y ago
      While I don't have personal experience with it myself, things like games lend themselves well to a limited use of OOP but also require performance-critical code and tight control over the language. With static analysis tools, I bet that C++ could be audited more comprehensive through automated tests than C could be.
    - azth 14y ago
      > If someone wanted speed of execution, why not use Ansi C? If someone wanted object oriented programming, why not the myriad other languages? Because they want both speed and OO programming? :) C++ is a multi-paradigm language. It has more abstractions than C, while retaining the ability to get down to the metal when you need to. Arguably, these higher level features are desirable when working on larger code bases. C++ also has features that make it easier to write clean and correct code (such as RAII). Templates and operator overloading makes for writing expressive libraries. I remember reading and article that compared C and C++ in the context of a matrix library. The C++ code was much more concise and readable, and was easier to get right compared to C, mainly due to those two features. Furthermore, C++ can actually be faster than C. The canonical example is the templated std::sort() vs C's quicksort(). The C++ compiler is able to inline the comparator argument to the former, whereas qsort() takes a function pointer.
- zurn 14y ago
  Rob Pike wrote a post about the curious phenomena of most Go coming from high-level languages and not from C++: http://commandcenter.blogspot.fi/2012/06/less-is-exponentially-more.html http://commandcenter.blogspot.fi/2012/06/less-is-exponential... Apparently the remaining C++ users are really fixated on something called zero cost abstractions, and it's not a goal of Go: "Zero cost isn't a goal, at least not zero CPU cost. Go's claim is that minimizing programmer effort is a more important consideration." (though I don't think C++ succeeds in "zero cost abstractions")
kennu 14y ago
How does Go replace Python for web development? Is there a thriving web framework and module ecosystem for Go, like Django/Rails are for Python/Ruby?
- dchest 14y ago
  Why do you need Django/Rails for web development?
  - spamizbad 14y ago
    You don't. But without something like them (or microframeworks + libs) you're going to be rewriting a bunch of stuff yourself. On top of that, security sensitive parts (session management, CSRF protection) that get hand-rolled will need a significant amount of testing. If you have the time and resources though... go for it! Edit: But it does seem like there's already some contenders for Go's go-to framework (Like Django/Rails are for their respective language) http://robfig.github.com/revel/ http://robfig.github.com/revel/ http://code.google.com/p/goweb/ http://code.google.com/p/goweb/ https://github.com/ungerik/go-start https://github.com/ungerik/go-start
    - dchest 14y ago
      My point was that you don't need huge frameworks with high barrier to entry to write web applications -- the things you mentioned can be handled by external modules just as well. Need captcha? Find the best captcha package and use it.
      - pretoriusB 14y ago
        Yes, and tomorrow that captcha package is abandoned, left to rot, etc. Or some other library you used. Especially since most Go packages are one man shows in GitHub (3-4 abandoned MySQL drivers, etc). I'd rather have a framework with a community that ensures that it is guaranteed to be maintained in the future.
- cmccabe 14y ago

DigitalJack 14y ago

I am not a programmer by trade... but I'm a little confused as to why you would say Go can replace java but not c++? Is it just a speed thing?

koko775 14y ago
C++ gives you an insane amount of control, is exceedingly manual, hard to use, hard to learn, and you can easily screw yourself over by using it - but it gives you so much performance that it's worth the necessary expertise. Go tries to be safer and more automatic, like Java. While it's more organized and prescriptive than C or C++, it's less religious than Java about everything being a class. So it encourages the pragmatism and low-levelness of closer-to-the-metal languages while also abstracting out a lot of the details which get in the way of just writing systems.
- myko 14y ago
  So the answer to the question is that C++ is just much more performant than Go in general?
  - codewright 14y ago
    It's principally about control, performance is a side effect related to control and abstractions.
- afhof 14y ago
  I still can't grok why people pick C++. Is it just a Windows specific thing? If someone wanted speed of execution, why not use Ansi C? If someone wanted object oriented programming, why not the myriad other languages? (Java comes to mind) What does C++ do better than all the languages?
  - koko775 14y ago
    While I don't have personal experience with it myself, things like games lend themselves well to a limited use of OOP but also require performance-critical code and tight control over the language. With static analysis tools, I bet that C++ could be audited more comprehensive through automated tests than C could be.
  - azth 14y ago
    > If someone wanted speed of execution, why not use Ansi C? If someone wanted object oriented programming, why not the myriad other languages? Because they want both speed and OO programming? :) C++ is a multi-paradigm language. It has more abstractions than C, while retaining the ability to get down to the metal when you need to. Arguably, these higher level features are desirable when working on larger code bases. C++ also has features that make it easier to write clean and correct code (such as RAII). Templates and operator overloading makes for writing expressive libraries. I remember reading and article that compared C and C++ in the context of a matrix library. The C++ code was much more concise and readable, and was easier to get right compared to C, mainly due to those two features. Furthermore, C++ can actually be faster than C. The canonical example is the templated std::sort() vs C's quicksort(). The C++ compiler is able to inline the comparator argument to the former, whereas qsort() takes a function pointer.
zurn 14y ago
Rob Pike wrote a post about the curious phenomena of most Go coming from high-level languages and not from C++: http://commandcenter.blogspot.fi/2012/06/less-is-exponentially-more.html http://commandcenter.blogspot.fi/2012/06/less-is-exponential... Apparently the remaining C++ users are really fixated on something called zero cost abstractions, and it's not a goal of Go: "Zero cost isn't a goal, at least not zero CPU cost. Go's claim is that minimizing programmer effort is a more important consideration." (though I don't think C++ succeeds in "zero cost abstractions")

kennu 14y ago

How does Go replace Python for web development? Is there a thriving web framework and module ecosystem for Go, like Django/Rails are for Python/Ruby?

dchest 14y ago
Why do you need Django/Rails for web development?
- spamizbad 14y ago
  You don't. But without something like them (or microframeworks + libs) you're going to be rewriting a bunch of stuff yourself. On top of that, security sensitive parts (session management, CSRF protection) that get hand-rolled will need a significant amount of testing. If you have the time and resources though... go for it! Edit: But it does seem like there's already some contenders for Go's go-to framework (Like Django/Rails are for their respective language) http://robfig.github.com/revel/ http://robfig.github.com/revel/ http://code.google.com/p/goweb/ http://code.google.com/p/goweb/ https://github.com/ungerik/go-start https://github.com/ungerik/go-start
  - dchest 14y ago
    My point was that you don't need huge frameworks with high barrier to entry to write web applications -- the things you mentioned can be handled by external modules just as well. Need captcha? Find the best captcha package and use it.
    - pretoriusB 14y ago
      Yes, and tomorrow that captcha package is abandoned, left to rot, etc. Or some other library you used. Especially since most Go packages are one man shows in GitHub (3-4 abandoned MySQL drivers, etc). I'd rather have a framework with a community that ensures that it is guaranteed to be maintained in the future.
cmccabe 14y ago