4 ms·

Any good outliner alternatives out there? I originally came from Roam and was really happy to find an offline alternative in Logseq. I've since moved to Obsidi

by phil42 3mo ago

Any good outliner alternatives out there? I originally came from Roam and was really happy to find an offline alternative in Logseq. I've since moved to Obsidian, though. Obsidian works well, but I still feel like my brain works best with the outliner-style workflow that Roam and Logseq offer. I have heard of https://outl.app/ https://outl.app/ but when I tried it out, it still seemed in a very early stage (and heavily vibe-coded, which I also don't enjoy).

Tomte 3mo ago
Workflowy.
- phil42 3mo ago
  That's what I started with originally, but it's not offline and stores all data on their servers. Something like Workflowy but offline or self-hosted would be brilliant.
  - karencarits 3mo ago
    Maybe someone can put Claude Fable on it
  - shaism 3mo ago
    I created a version for personal use a month ago. https://github.com/SharifIsmail/tendril https://github.com/SharifIsmail/tendril Feel free to give it a try. Agents can also directly interact with it.
  - AbstractH24 3mo ago
    So, Obsidian?
- AbstractH24 3mo ago
  Workflowy's never-ending delays for an API make Logseq look fast. Truth is, it's been nearly a decade since I used Workflowy and nothing has ever been as good. But the inability to email notes to it or otherwise push data to it from other sources was such a deal breaker. Particularly as mobile became a larger and larger part of my life. Then there was Moo.do, the next best infinite-outline tool I could find. Their rebrand as Legend was strange, made it hard to find the app, and, from an SEO perspective, was an odd choice. One of these days I should return to either Workflowy or Legend. My issues were silly and now are much more surmountable. EDIT: WOW, Workflowy has really gotten with the times! Seems to be iterating much faster and even has an MCP server.
- bossyTeacher 3mo ago
  Workflowy is not free. If you are willing to pay, Obsidian > Workflowy. If you are not willing to pay, Obsidian > Workflowy.
- campak 3mo ago
  For anyone wanting Workflowy but open source and self-hostable, I’ve created Dotflowy https://app.dotflowy.com https://app.dotflowy.com Invite: jesus-saves
swah 3mo ago
Same, was trying this again today. I like the parity of web and TUI.
lab14 3mo ago
Workflowy is awesome.
- bogdan 3mo ago
  Am I missing something? I get 100 bullets per month unless I subscribe? There are so many alternatives that are free. I'm using Capacities right now which seems way more feature rich and I haven't hit any limits on the free plan.
xienze 3mo ago
It's not exactly like logseq but I really like SilverBullet (https://silverbullet.md/ https://silverbullet.md/). It's self-hostable and really hackable (plugins, dynamic categorization via embedding custom queries, etc.). Browsers are the first class platform. I really dislike how logseq/Obsidian etc. try to push you towards local fat clients or web clients that only use browser local storage. I _want_ everything stored on a central server so I can just pick up on any device without having to sync.
- flkiwi 3mo ago
  Same. And it's been fascinating to watch the genuine gap between people in our camp and people who really, really want "local-first" (which, to me, translates to inconvenience and otherwise unnecessary sync requirements).
- ezst 3mo ago
  It can be both: I love being able to use Trilium "as a website" to check out my notes on other's (e.g. employer's) devices, and as a local first/fully offline/totally synced app during e.g. a flight trip or in case of an outage. The two just coexist and sync like a mesh. https://triliumnotes.org/ https://triliumnotes.org/
wosk 3mo ago
You might want to try this new logseq though, if the devs have not burned all your goodwill. You can use it with a markdown mirror (it's a feature under settings) so you keep you same notes in markdown as well. It's open-source, really well designed, local, you can even self-host sync... But: the devs make questionable decisions that makes the development roadmap quite bumpy. It should ease up.
- AbstractH24 3mo ago
  The devs have burned enough goodwill to be a “early adopter” of sorts, but not enough for me to be later on the adoption curve So I hope others dip their toe in it builds momentumn
yes_but_no 3mo ago
bike, if you are on macos https://www.hogbaysoftware.com/bike/ https://www.hogbaysoftware.com/bike/
dogmayor 3mo ago
Take a look at Kosshi. I like it so far. https://kosshi.app/ https://kosshi.app/
chrisweekly 3mo ago
Obsidian's "Outliner" plugin is really pretty good. Esp. assuming "Editing view" and "Live Preview" editing mode, (which combine for WYSIWYG). I appreciate the standard, intuitive keyboard shortcuts for creating/removing bullets, indenting/outdenting, moving lines up or down, etc. Also, you can use the built-in syntax for block references to kinda-sorta recreate the Roam block-based setup.
- packetlost 3mo ago
  I've found it lacking, especially with kinda buggy interaction with the vim keybindings. Obsidian's data model, a huge selling point to some, really hinders it too. Logseq's new db format let's you treat any block as a page, metadata and all which can be super helpful.
  - chrisweekly 3mo ago
    I'll stick with my portable local-filesystem markdown over any db format (let alone with Obsidian's Coreview and Dataview plugins, and Bases, for db-like querying).
    - packetlost 3mo ago
      And more power to you. I find the SQLite database of plain-text to be a worthwhile tradeoff to grow past the limitations of plain markdown files.
      - chrisweekly 3mo ago
        Right on. I'm glad there are options. :)
campak 3mo ago
Been creating an open source Workflowy alternative called Dotflowy and it’s available for testing now https://app.dotflowy.com https://app.dotflowy.com Invite code: jesus-saves Think Workflowy outliner meets plugin extensibility of Obsidian, meets the beauty of Linear, meets the markdown feel of Bear notes
lardissone 3mo ago
I’m using Capacities and I love it. Great team.
avelino 3mo ago
[flagged]
vmesel 3mo ago
outl contributor here! we are early stage still, but we’ve been advancing it pretty quickly. we now have the local P2P sync that enables you to sync all notes through all of your devices and many more features to come

by phil42 3mo ago

Tomte 3mo ago

Workflowy.

phil42 3mo ago
That's what I started with originally, but it's not offline and stores all data on their servers. Something like Workflowy but offline or self-hosted would be brilliant.
- karencarits 3mo ago
  Maybe someone can put Claude Fable on it
- shaism 3mo ago
  I created a version for personal use a month ago. https://github.com/SharifIsmail/tendril https://github.com/SharifIsmail/tendril Feel free to give it a try. Agents can also directly interact with it.
- AbstractH24 3mo ago
  So, Obsidian?
AbstractH24 3mo ago
Workflowy's never-ending delays for an API make Logseq look fast. Truth is, it's been nearly a decade since I used Workflowy and nothing has ever been as good. But the inability to email notes to it or otherwise push data to it from other sources was such a deal breaker. Particularly as mobile became a larger and larger part of my life. Then there was Moo.do, the next best infinite-outline tool I could find. Their rebrand as Legend was strange, made it hard to find the app, and, from an SEO perspective, was an odd choice. One of these days I should return to either Workflowy or Legend. My issues were silly and now are much more surmountable. EDIT: WOW, Workflowy has really gotten with the times! Seems to be iterating much faster and even has an MCP server.
bossyTeacher 3mo ago
Workflowy is not free. If you are willing to pay, Obsidian > Workflowy. If you are not willing to pay, Obsidian > Workflowy.
campak 3mo ago
For anyone wanting Workflowy but open source and self-hostable, I’ve created Dotflowy https://app.dotflowy.com https://app.dotflowy.com Invite: jesus-saves

swah 3mo ago

Same, was trying this again today. I like the parity of web and TUI.

lab14 3mo ago

Workflowy is awesome.

bogdan 3mo ago
Am I missing something? I get 100 bullets per month unless I subscribe? There are so many alternatives that are free. I'm using Capacities right now which seems way more feature rich and I haven't hit any limits on the free plan.

xienze 3mo ago

It's not exactly like logseq but I really like SilverBullet (https://silverbullet.md/ https://silverbullet.md/). It's self-hostable and really hackable (plugins, dynamic categorization via embedding custom queries, etc.). Browsers are the first class platform. I really dislike how logseq/Obsidian etc. try to push you towards local fat clients or web clients that only use browser local storage. I _want_ everything stored on a central server so I can just pick up on any device without having to sync.

flkiwi 3mo ago
Same. And it's been fascinating to watch the genuine gap between people in our camp and people who really, really want "local-first" (which, to me, translates to inconvenience and otherwise unnecessary sync requirements).
ezst 3mo ago
It can be both: I love being able to use Trilium "as a website" to check out my notes on other's (e.g. employer's) devices, and as a local first/fully offline/totally synced app during e.g. a flight trip or in case of an outage. The two just coexist and sync like a mesh. https://triliumnotes.org/ https://triliumnotes.org/

wosk 3mo ago

You might want to try this new logseq though, if the devs have not burned all your goodwill. You can use it with a markdown mirror (it's a feature under settings) so you keep you same notes in markdown as well. It's open-source, really well designed, local, you can even self-host sync... But: the devs make questionable decisions that makes the development roadmap quite bumpy. It should ease up.

AbstractH24 3mo ago
The devs have burned enough goodwill to be a “early adopter” of sorts, but not enough for me to be later on the adoption curve So I hope others dip their toe in it builds momentumn

yes_but_no 3mo ago

bike, if you are on macos https://www.hogbaysoftware.com/bike/ https://www.hogbaysoftware.com/bike/

dogmayor 3mo ago

Take a look at Kosshi. I like it so far. https://kosshi.app/ https://kosshi.app/

chrisweekly 3mo ago

Obsidian's "Outliner" plugin is really pretty good. Esp. assuming "Editing view" and "Live Preview" editing mode, (which combine for WYSIWYG). I appreciate the standard, intuitive keyboard shortcuts for creating/removing bullets, indenting/outdenting, moving lines up or down, etc. Also, you can use the built-in syntax for block references to kinda-sorta recreate the Roam block-based setup.

packetlost 3mo ago
I've found it lacking, especially with kinda buggy interaction with the vim keybindings. Obsidian's data model, a huge selling point to some, really hinders it too. Logseq's new db format let's you treat any block as a page, metadata and all which can be super helpful.
- chrisweekly 3mo ago
  I'll stick with my portable local-filesystem markdown over any db format (let alone with Obsidian's Coreview and Dataview plugins, and Bases, for db-like querying).
  - packetlost 3mo ago
    And more power to you. I find the SQLite database of plain-text to be a worthwhile tradeoff to grow past the limitations of plain markdown files.
    - chrisweekly 3mo ago
      Right on. I'm glad there are options. :)

campak 3mo ago

Been creating an open source Workflowy alternative called Dotflowy and it’s available for testing now https://app.dotflowy.com https://app.dotflowy.com Invite code: jesus-saves Think Workflowy outliner meets plugin extensibility of Obsidian, meets the beauty of Linear, meets the markdown feel of Bear notes

lardissone 3mo ago

I’m using Capacities and I love it. Great team.

avelino 3mo ago

[flagged]

vmesel 3mo ago

outl contributor here! we are early stage still, but we’ve been advancing it pretty quickly. we now have the local P2P sync that enables you to sync all notes through all of your devices and many more features to come