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Perhaps the current government shouldn’t be in power and everybody involved should get audited and investigated for fraud and corruption

by dgellow 4mo ago

mcmcmc 4mo ago
Perhaps that’s what the 2nd Amendment is for
- throw0101d 4mo ago
  Movements/causes that use violence are less successful (23%) than those that use non-violence (45%): * https://www.journalofdemocracy.org/articles/the-future-of-nonviolent-resistance-2/ https://www.journalofdemocracy.org/articles/the-future-of-no... * https://global.oup.com/academic/product/civil-resistance-9780190244408 https://global.oup.com/academic/product/civil-resistance-978... At least per historical surveys (600 movements since 1900).
  - thunderfork 4mo ago
    And yet, 100% of states, successful and unsuccessful, use violence for various purposes
georgemcbay 4mo ago
> everybody involved should get audited and investigated for fraud and corruption This is absolutely what should happen, but what will almost certainly happen is that the most openly corrupt president the US has ever had will blanket pardon everyone who remains loyal to him for the remainder of his term and there will be no federal level criminal legal consequences for any of these people. And this is kind of the optimistic outcome, the one where the corrupt people in power don't find a way to extend their power indefinitely, which is certainly their plan (their incompetence may stop this from happening).
- TitaRusell 4mo ago
  I never understood the presidential pardon. It's like America is basically admitting it has no faith in their own justice system. Or want a cheat code to skip it lol.
  - georgemcbay 4mo ago
    To be fair, the power was added as a failsafe to be used for legitimate clemency in cases of judicial overreach which is also a concern. I do believe it was added with good intentions. But like many aspects of US federal government, the people who drafted the rules naively presumed the people invoking them would have some level of integrity and a shame response that would stop them from using it for openly corrupt purposes. They were, of course, wrong. At the very least they should have ignored Hamilton and made it so that Senate approval was required for the pardons... though even that wouldn't be enough of a check today because we now know that Congress is capable of completely abdicating its power to the executive branch.
    - TitaRusell 4mo ago
      Well I am not against pardons but having a single person parsing them out instead of parliament/Congress reeks of the kingly powers that the Founding Fathers correctly opposed. But it is difficult to make a system Trump/asshole proof.
  - lesuorac 4mo ago
    Complex systems don't pop out of thin air. The US form of government is highly based on the existing British one and the British King had the ability to pardon and so that was copied over. I do think it makes a lot of sense to do things like mass-pardon people for things that are no longer crimes (i.e. weed legalization) but I really don't see how singling out cases is correct since the supreme court already can do that.
    - throw0101d 4mo ago
      > Complex systems don't pop out of thin air. You've obviously never been part of an SAP/ERP implementation. /s
BurningFrog 4mo ago
Overthrowing democratic rule feels like an overreaction.
- tremon 4mo ago
  Calling the current regime "democratic rule" feels like a stretch. Wouldn't democratic rule first require that the ruler respects other democratic institutions such as the press, the courts, and the Constitution?
  - BurningFrog 4mo ago
    Democratic rule primarily means that those who win elections get to rule. That's really the by far most important aspect!
    - tremon 4mo ago
      It really isn't; the most important aspect is that it enables peaceful transfer of power without the leaving group having to fear for their lives. But your perspective does explain a lot about the current state of the USA.
- bikezen 4mo ago
  Like trying to storm congressional buildings when the democratically decided election was going to be confirmed? then maybe pardoning everyone involved in doing that when it failed the next time coming to power?
- dgellow 4mo ago
  It’s defending democratic rules to charge corrupt officials. The idea that a democracy cannot defend itself from people pillaging it is absurd

Perhaps the current government shouldn’t be in power and everybody involved should get audited and investigated for fraud and corruption

by dgellow 4mo ago

Perhaps the current government shouldn’t be in power and everybody involved should get audited and investigated for fraud and corruption

mcmcmc 4mo ago

Perhaps that’s what the 2nd Amendment is for

throw0101d 4mo ago
Movements/causes that use violence are less successful (23%) than those that use non-violence (45%): * https://www.journalofdemocracy.org/articles/the-future-of-nonviolent-resistance-2/ https://www.journalofdemocracy.org/articles/the-future-of-no... * https://global.oup.com/academic/product/civil-resistance-9780190244408 https://global.oup.com/academic/product/civil-resistance-978... At least per historical surveys (600 movements since 1900).
- thunderfork 4mo ago
  And yet, 100% of states, successful and unsuccessful, use violence for various purposes

georgemcbay 4mo ago

> everybody involved should get audited and investigated for fraud and corruption This is absolutely what should happen, but what will almost certainly happen is that the most openly corrupt president the US has ever had will blanket pardon everyone who remains loyal to him for the remainder of his term and there will be no federal level criminal legal consequences for any of these people. And this is kind of the optimistic outcome, the one where the corrupt people in power don't find a way to extend their power indefinitely, which is certainly their plan (their incompetence may stop this from happening).

TitaRusell 4mo ago
I never understood the presidential pardon. It's like America is basically admitting it has no faith in their own justice system. Or want a cheat code to skip it lol.
- georgemcbay 4mo ago
  To be fair, the power was added as a failsafe to be used for legitimate clemency in cases of judicial overreach which is also a concern. I do believe it was added with good intentions. But like many aspects of US federal government, the people who drafted the rules naively presumed the people invoking them would have some level of integrity and a shame response that would stop them from using it for openly corrupt purposes. They were, of course, wrong. At the very least they should have ignored Hamilton and made it so that Senate approval was required for the pardons... though even that wouldn't be enough of a check today because we now know that Congress is capable of completely abdicating its power to the executive branch.
  - TitaRusell 4mo ago
    Well I am not against pardons but having a single person parsing them out instead of parliament/Congress reeks of the kingly powers that the Founding Fathers correctly opposed. But it is difficult to make a system Trump/asshole proof.
- lesuorac 4mo ago
  Complex systems don't pop out of thin air. The US form of government is highly based on the existing British one and the British King had the ability to pardon and so that was copied over. I do think it makes a lot of sense to do things like mass-pardon people for things that are no longer crimes (i.e. weed legalization) but I really don't see how singling out cases is correct since the supreme court already can do that.
  - throw0101d 4mo ago
    > Complex systems don't pop out of thin air. You've obviously never been part of an SAP/ERP implementation. /s

BurningFrog 4mo ago

Overthrowing democratic rule feels like an overreaction.

tremon 4mo ago
Calling the current regime "democratic rule" feels like a stretch. Wouldn't democratic rule first require that the ruler respects other democratic institutions such as the press, the courts, and the Constitution?
- BurningFrog 4mo ago
  Democratic rule primarily means that those who win elections get to rule. That's really the by far most important aspect!
  - tremon 4mo ago
    It really isn't; the most important aspect is that it enables peaceful transfer of power without the leaving group having to fear for their lives. But your perspective does explain a lot about the current state of the USA.
bikezen 4mo ago
Like trying to storm congressional buildings when the democratically decided election was going to be confirmed? then maybe pardoning everyone involved in doing that when it failed the next time coming to power?
dgellow 4mo ago
It’s defending democratic rules to charge corrupt officials. The idea that a democracy cannot defend itself from people pillaging it is absurd