3 ms·

One of the things I find so disappointing about Kelley's behavior here is that he falsely accused Jarred Sumner of lying about fuzzing Bun, and then when Sumner

by mtlynch 3mo ago

One of the things I find so disappointing about Kelley's behavior here is that he falsely accused Jarred Sumner of lying about fuzzing Bun, and then when Sumner showed evidence[0] that they've been fuzzing Bun for months, Kelley just silently edited his post[1] to walk back the accusation and never apologized or admitted he was wrong. I commented on Mastodon[2] to point out to Kelley that it's dishonest to silently remove the accusation, as so many people were already talking about it, and it confuses the conversation if Kelley retroactively edits it, and he replied[3]: > the false claim is in the bun blog post not mine. I only changed the text because it's easy to lazily argue against it. Please read more carefully. They are the ones being deceitful not me. Loris Cro, Zig's VP of Community, gave a slightly clearer response[4]: > Jarred's post has a section about what they "were already doing" to maintain their Zig codebase, which includes "24/7 fuzzing", which will make the average reader assume that the codebase has been fuzzed thoroughly, while in reality it has been for, what, 2 months before the rewrite? Even then, I find it so bizarre that Loris thinks that if someone says, "We've been fuzzing Bun," and shows evidence of months of fuzzing, then that person is lying because "We've been fuzzing Bun" somehow implies something longer than two months. The duration is irrelevant. If you say you've been fuzzing it and you've fixed bugs that your fuzzer found, then clearly you're fuzzing. The Zig team doesn't get to arbitrarily move the goalposts of what "fuzzing" means. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48845652 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48845652 [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48854921 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48854921 [2] https://m.mtlynch.io/@michael/116896188093796421 https://m.mtlynch.io/@michael/116896188093796421 [3] https://mastodon.social/@andrewrk/116897155344411469 https://mastodon.social/@andrewrk/116897155344411469 [4] https://hachyderm.io/@kristoff/116898483283387067 https://hachyderm.io/@kristoff/116898483283387067

mi_lk 3mo ago
> The post claims they were fuzzing their Zig code, while during our calls the whole Bun team told us that they were not fuzzing anything If you read the post again this sentence is not removed and Sumner did not refute that
- mtlynch 3mo ago
  Right, that part is not in dispute. If Sumner says today, "We do X," then Kelley can say, "Nine months ago, Sumner did not do X," and both can be correct. What Kelley can't do is say, "It's an outright fabrication that Sumner does X today," based on an observation from nine months ago.
  - AndyKelley 3mo ago
    Now you've misquoted me. Actual quote[1] is: "This appears to be an outright fabrication." To quote yourself[2], "The honest thing to do is acknowledge that you were mistaken and apologize for the false accusation." Are you going to do that for me now? I don't expect you to, because I don't think you are being dishonest. I think you are earnestly trying to untangle the facts from two parties for whom you have no bias one way or the other, which is commendable. Like you, I am an individual attempting to paint an accurate picture of reality for my readers. Anthropic, on the other hand, is not an individual nor trying to be accurate. They are doing exactly as they are supposed to: maximizing value for shareholders. To do this, they need to make this rewrite appear successful, so they need to retcon this idea that they were doing good engineering practices in their zig codebase the whole time, including fuzzing, even though that is not the case. [1]: https://github.com/andrewrk/andrewkelley.me/blob/c39f868e5786660332574027cc3d34c440c752a0/posts/my-thoughts-bun-rust-rewrite.html#L142 https://github.com/andrewrk/andrewkelley.me/blob/c39f868e578... [2]: https://mastodon.social/@michael@m.mtlynch.io/116896188112965718 https://mastodon.social/@michael@m.mtlynch.io/11689618811296...
    - ModernMech 3mo ago
      Dude just stop. This has been embarrassing and damaging enough to your reputation, you should just give it a rest for now. Your friends have made you self-aware enough to realize you have unprocessed emotions about this — process them. Best to get out of the comment section, and your head. The saying is if you’re explaining you’re losing. I’m not a fan of Bun or Jarred but of your Zig work. Stick to that, it’s where you serve the community best. In the future, just present the verifiable facts and you’ll be okay.
    - 3mo ago

by mtlynch 3mo ago

mi_lk 3mo ago

> The post claims they were fuzzing their Zig code, while during our calls the whole Bun team told us that they were not fuzzing anything If you read the post again this sentence is not removed and Sumner did not refute that

mtlynch 3mo ago
Right, that part is not in dispute. If Sumner says today, "We do X," then Kelley can say, "Nine months ago, Sumner did not do X," and both can be correct. What Kelley can't do is say, "It's an outright fabrication that Sumner does X today," based on an observation from nine months ago.
- AndyKelley 3mo ago
  Now you've misquoted me. Actual quote[1] is: "This appears to be an outright fabrication." To quote yourself[2], "The honest thing to do is acknowledge that you were mistaken and apologize for the false accusation." Are you going to do that for me now? I don't expect you to, because I don't think you are being dishonest. I think you are earnestly trying to untangle the facts from two parties for whom you have no bias one way or the other, which is commendable. Like you, I am an individual attempting to paint an accurate picture of reality for my readers. Anthropic, on the other hand, is not an individual nor trying to be accurate. They are doing exactly as they are supposed to: maximizing value for shareholders. To do this, they need to make this rewrite appear successful, so they need to retcon this idea that they were doing good engineering practices in their zig codebase the whole time, including fuzzing, even though that is not the case. [1]: https://github.com/andrewrk/andrewkelley.me/blob/c39f868e5786660332574027cc3d34c440c752a0/posts/my-thoughts-bun-rust-rewrite.html#L142 https://github.com/andrewrk/andrewkelley.me/blob/c39f868e578... [2]: https://mastodon.social/@michael@m.mtlynch.io/116896188112965718 https://mastodon.social/@michael@m.mtlynch.io/11689618811296...
  - ModernMech 3mo ago
    Dude just stop. This has been embarrassing and damaging enough to your reputation, you should just give it a rest for now. Your friends have made you self-aware enough to realize you have unprocessed emotions about this — process them. Best to get out of the comment section, and your head. The saying is if you’re explaining you’re losing. I’m not a fan of Bun or Jarred but of your Zig work. Stick to that, it’s where you serve the community best. In the future, just present the verifiable facts and you’ll be okay.
  - 3mo ago