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> Anthropic is not in the programming language market; their post about rewriting Bun in Rust is full of technical details that led to improving the end product

> Anthropic is not in the programming language market; their post about rewriting Bun in Rust is full of technical details that led to improving the end product for their users Anthropic absolutely is in the programming language market. If/since AI makes rewrites to certain languages relatively easy, a success story will tie the given language(s) to the given AI company. Rust may have a tremendous success in the future, because it's much easier to write it with AI (ignoring for a moment whether that's really a good thing). The implication is that Anthropic has a stake in Rust's success. Also, to be kept in mind that devs advertising successfull rewrites often hide some aspects that are unfavorable to the narrative; typically, how bad was the code before the rewrite), although there are other (significant) aspects that have been omitted. > Zig's response is a sour opinion piece full of personal attacks. I take you haven't read Andrew Kelley's article (here: https://andrewkelley.me/post/my-thoughts-bun-rust-rewrite.html https://andrewkelley.me/post/my-thoughts-bun-rust-rewrite.ht...). Summary: - Jarred has written Bun with very bad engineering standards - Jarred has managed public relations very poorly (e.g. ghosting the Zig foundation) - When they rewrote the project to Rust, and described Zig as poor choice, there has been a negative fallout for Zig - The ZSF is obviously upset because of the poor publicity This is summarized at the end of the post: > Zig users who knew next to none of these facts and have only the surface level understanding that an ex-Zig-user is getting trashed by the language creator. Such people might reasonably worry that might happen to them As a matter of fact, I also believed the same after reading's Bun's post. This is undeserved though, and that's what Kelley explains. There's definitely a personal attack somewhat, and this is addressed in the last (added later) section.

preommr 3mo ago
> I also believed the same after reading's Bun's post. This doesn't even make any sense. The part that you're quoting[0], is Andrew commenting on the fallout from the blog post he made. How could you have thought something about a blog post that hadn't come out yet? Also, if you are talkinga bout the post Jarred made, it was extremely charitable about zig: "Zig made Bun possible. I would never have been able to build this much in 1 year if it wasn't for Zig." [0] "The other critical mistake I made with this post was failing to consider the rather obvious and important point that this might affect Zig users who knew next to none of these facts and have only the surface level understanding that an ex-Zig-user is getting trashed by the language creator."
cheikhcheikh 3mo ago
We've read the andrew blog. It is a personal attack a very petty one, you're clearly a biased fan of his and of zig probably if you cannot see the obvious, but we're telling you as outsiders how poorly it reflects on andrew and the future of zig, and this is coming from someone who originally had a very good opinion of zig and andrew, now not so much. You can choose to ignore that and engage in the massive circlejerk zig fans are engaging in during this or maybe take a second and reconsider
- therobots927 3mo ago
  [flagged]
  - redsocksfan45 3mo ago
    [dead]
NewsaHackO 3mo ago
>Jarred has managed public relations very poorly (e.g. ghosting the Zig foundation) I actually love the use of ghosting in this post. It is almost a Freudian slip about how Zig looks like from the view of outsiders. Zig moves exactly like how toxic exes do. They point fingers, make passive-aggressive statements, unnecessarily air out dirty laundry, and downplay all of the good their partner has done during the relationship.
dcre 3mo ago
> since AI makes rewrites to certain languages relatively easy This premise makes no sense. AI makes rewrites to any language easy.
- pineapplepizza6 3mo ago
  This isn't true. AI couldn't rewrite Firefox in Brainfuck.
- postalrat 3mo ago
  IMO there is no reason to believe llms create equal quality code in all languages.
  - overgard 3mo ago
    They really don't. Even per-project it can be a shitshow. For instance, while I use LLMs to write some typescript, when I'm writing code for Unreal Engine in C++ & Blueprint I pretty much do it by hand because it absolutely can't do blueprint in any meaningful sense. Even the most basic requests result in an absolute mess. (I imagine it's also very hard to train on since its stored as binary data). Even the C++ code it generates is pretty rough -- regular linker errors etc.
- fg137 3mo ago
  easy or good?
  - dcre 3mo ago
    Both!
- unknownfuture 3mo ago
  That's absolutely not true. Differently languages have greater or lesser representation in the training sets. You see a similar bias toward specific libraries within a given ecosystem, so much so that I worry about AI created technical monocultures as AI generated code converges to specific languages, packages, etc. The LLM companies have truly astounding power to now steer the direction of the entire industry. It should worry all of us.
worrycue 3mo ago
> Rust may have a tremendous success in the future, because it's much easier to write it with AI (ignoring for a moment whether that's really a good thing). It’s interesting that Rust could become the most deployed but the least written (by humans) programming language if the dreams of AI bros come true. If AI gets good enough to competently translate other languages to Rust then there is no point writing in Rust (a language with a steep learning curve and is high friction in use), you can just write in a low friction language like C, C++, Odin, Zig, … etc. and have AI translate it to Rust catching all the memory bugs in the process.
- moomoo11 3mo ago
  i’d rather have a run time than this way of working.
- vlovich123 3mo ago
  C/C++ is low friction compared to Rust? Wow. We have very different experiences.
  - guardiangod 3mo ago
    If your objective is just to hack something together quickly to test an idea, and doesn't care if the application segfault 6 hours later (eg. a prototype game engine), C++ is definitely the superior choice to Rust. Rust is like the instructor demanding that you build your house up to the national code, down to the choice of nail for your floor board. Your house will be perfect, but building it is extremely difficult and high-friction. In many cases this is unnecessary.
    - andriy_koval 3mo ago
      > doesn't care if the application segfault 6 hours later (eg. a prototype game engine), C++ is definitely the superior choice to Rust. I wouldn't say "definitely", given Rust deps management is way more streamlined.
    - vlovich123 3mo ago
budsniffer952 3mo ago
>Jarred has written Bun with very bad engineering standards "You're holding it wrong." >Jarred has managed public relations very poorly (e.g. ghosting the Zig foundation) What obligation do you think he has here? Which direction should these good relations flow? I'm also an outsider here, and reading this post was kind of shocking. Can't believe someone would attack your open source code. It's everything normies hate about ornery IT people.
- empath75 3mo ago
  I'm basically of the opinion that if agents can't write your programming language, that's a problem with your programming language.
  - jesseschalken 3mo ago
    So, no new programming languages until the end of time?
  - bigstrat2003 3mo ago
    That is an absolutely foolish position to take. Basically, when given proof that agents need improvement you're sticking your fingers in your ears and going "nuh uh, it's not their fault".
maleldil 3mo ago
> I take you haven't read Andrew Kelley's article Yes, that's the sour opinion piece full of personal attacks.
ksec 3mo ago
- When they rewrote the project to Rust, and described Zig as poor choice, there has been a negative fallout for Zig - The ZSF is obviously upset because of the poor publicity No where did they describe zig as poor choice, and there were zero evidence ZSF was getting poor publicity. Had whole of HN, Reddit and Twitter all laughing at Zig this would have make more sense. But that was not the case. As a matter of fact I don't even record a single comment about it. If anything a lot of these "poor publicity" and "Zig as poor choice" were completely fabricated. Had the internet turned against Zig, the response may have deserve a lot more weight.
- veber-alex 3mo ago
  I mean, does it even matter? It's not Bun's or anyone else job to care about Zig's or the ZSF's feelings or publicity. A project who switches programming languages or frameworks or whatever doesn't need to be afraid of offend anyone.
  - ksec 3mo ago
    >I mean, does it even matter? It doesn't and didn't matter until Zig and ZSF blows it out of proportion.

preommr 3mo ago

> I also believed the same after reading's Bun's post. This doesn't even make any sense. The part that you're quoting[0], is Andrew commenting on the fallout from the blog post he made. How could you have thought something about a blog post that hadn't come out yet? Also, if you are talkinga bout the post Jarred made, it was extremely charitable about zig: "Zig made Bun possible. I would never have been able to build this much in 1 year if it wasn't for Zig." [0] "The other critical mistake I made with this post was failing to consider the rather obvious and important point that this might affect Zig users who knew next to none of these facts and have only the surface level understanding that an ex-Zig-user is getting trashed by the language creator."

cheikhcheikh 3mo ago

We've read the andrew blog. It is a personal attack a very petty one, you're clearly a biased fan of his and of zig probably if you cannot see the obvious, but we're telling you as outsiders how poorly it reflects on andrew and the future of zig, and this is coming from someone who originally had a very good opinion of zig and andrew, now not so much. You can choose to ignore that and engage in the massive circlejerk zig fans are engaging in during this or maybe take a second and reconsider

therobots927 3mo ago
[flagged]
- redsocksfan45 3mo ago
  [dead]

NewsaHackO 3mo ago

>Jarred has managed public relations very poorly (e.g. ghosting the Zig foundation) I actually love the use of ghosting in this post. It is almost a Freudian slip about how Zig looks like from the view of outsiders. Zig moves exactly like how toxic exes do. They point fingers, make passive-aggressive statements, unnecessarily air out dirty laundry, and downplay all of the good their partner has done during the relationship.

dcre 3mo ago

> since AI makes rewrites to certain languages relatively easy This premise makes no sense. AI makes rewrites to any language easy.

pineapplepizza6 3mo ago
This isn't true. AI couldn't rewrite Firefox in Brainfuck.
postalrat 3mo ago
IMO there is no reason to believe llms create equal quality code in all languages.
- overgard 3mo ago
  They really don't. Even per-project it can be a shitshow. For instance, while I use LLMs to write some typescript, when I'm writing code for Unreal Engine in C++ & Blueprint I pretty much do it by hand because it absolutely can't do blueprint in any meaningful sense. Even the most basic requests result in an absolute mess. (I imagine it's also very hard to train on since its stored as binary data). Even the C++ code it generates is pretty rough -- regular linker errors etc.
fg137 3mo ago
easy or good?
- dcre 3mo ago
  Both!
unknownfuture 3mo ago
That's absolutely not true. Differently languages have greater or lesser representation in the training sets. You see a similar bias toward specific libraries within a given ecosystem, so much so that I worry about AI created technical monocultures as AI generated code converges to specific languages, packages, etc. The LLM companies have truly astounding power to now steer the direction of the entire industry. It should worry all of us.

worrycue 3mo ago

> Rust may have a tremendous success in the future, because it's much easier to write it with AI (ignoring for a moment whether that's really a good thing). It’s interesting that Rust could become the most deployed but the least written (by humans) programming language if the dreams of AI bros come true. If AI gets good enough to competently translate other languages to Rust then there is no point writing in Rust (a language with a steep learning curve and is high friction in use), you can just write in a low friction language like C, C++, Odin, Zig, … etc. and have AI translate it to Rust catching all the memory bugs in the process.

moomoo11 3mo ago
i’d rather have a run time than this way of working.
vlovich123 3mo ago
C/C++ is low friction compared to Rust? Wow. We have very different experiences.
- guardiangod 3mo ago
  If your objective is just to hack something together quickly to test an idea, and doesn't care if the application segfault 6 hours later (eg. a prototype game engine), C++ is definitely the superior choice to Rust. Rust is like the instructor demanding that you build your house up to the national code, down to the choice of nail for your floor board. Your house will be perfect, but building it is extremely difficult and high-friction. In many cases this is unnecessary.
  - andriy_koval 3mo ago
    > doesn't care if the application segfault 6 hours later (eg. a prototype game engine), C++ is definitely the superior choice to Rust. I wouldn't say "definitely", given Rust deps management is way more streamlined.
  - vlovich123 3mo ago

budsniffer952 3mo ago

>Jarred has written Bun with very bad engineering standards "You're holding it wrong." >Jarred has managed public relations very poorly (e.g. ghosting the Zig foundation) What obligation do you think he has here? Which direction should these good relations flow? I'm also an outsider here, and reading this post was kind of shocking. Can't believe someone would attack your open source code. It's everything normies hate about ornery IT people.

empath75 3mo ago
I'm basically of the opinion that if agents can't write your programming language, that's a problem with your programming language.
- jesseschalken 3mo ago
  So, no new programming languages until the end of time?
- bigstrat2003 3mo ago
  That is an absolutely foolish position to take. Basically, when given proof that agents need improvement you're sticking your fingers in your ears and going "nuh uh, it's not their fault".

maleldil 3mo ago

> I take you haven't read Andrew Kelley's article Yes, that's the sour opinion piece full of personal attacks.

ksec 3mo ago

- When they rewrote the project to Rust, and described Zig as poor choice, there has been a negative fallout for Zig - The ZSF is obviously upset because of the poor publicity No where did they describe zig as poor choice, and there were zero evidence ZSF was getting poor publicity. Had whole of HN, Reddit and Twitter all laughing at Zig this would have make more sense. But that was not the case. As a matter of fact I don't even record a single comment about it. If anything a lot of these "poor publicity" and "Zig as poor choice" were completely fabricated. Had the internet turned against Zig, the response may have deserve a lot more weight.

veber-alex 3mo ago
I mean, does it even matter? It's not Bun's or anyone else job to care about Zig's or the ZSF's feelings or publicity. A project who switches programming languages or frameworks or whatever doesn't need to be afraid of offend anyone.
- ksec 3mo ago
  >I mean, does it even matter? It doesn't and didn't matter until Zig and ZSF blows it out of proportion.