15 ms·

Dropbox Hires Guido Van Rossum

586 points by dko 14y ago

bdesimone 14y ago
I'll be very interested to find out what role Guido will take up at dropbox. When someone like Matz/ Guido/ etc gets hired, what do their job responsibilities, for the community include exactly? Are language writer hires such as this purely symbolic?
- setheron 14y ago
  my thoughts exactly. I feel like it's a status symbol for a comapany. They are most likely busy giving talks and lectures to do any actual work. Maybe their value is in the odd meeting where they can voice some input. I've never had the pleasure of being in the room with giants such as these so I wouldn't know sadly.
  - ChuckMcM 14y ago
    There is a joke in Silicon Valley that one of the levels of success is "Your new company issues a press release that you've been hired." It goes something like: You know you are successful in Silicon Valley when: followed by silly things like "You are Time's Man of the Year" or "On Wired's most Influential list" that sort of thing.
    - kyllo 14y ago
      I guess that's why it's called "Silicon Valley" rather than "Sense of Humor Valley."
  - mememememememe 14y ago
    What does he do at Google exactly? I thought he was more like giving talk, optimizing Python and consulting Python engineers.
  - jaimebuelta 14y ago
    I sincerely hope that he will write some code. Keeping him busy just lecturing and giving talks will be like hiring Michael Jordan only to play baseball...
- theorique 14y ago
  Guy Steele's work at Oracle (previously Sun) was in the area of language design, but companies at that scale can afford a dedicated R+D presence.
- herge 14y ago
  If Guido van Rossum wanted to work on python full time, I am sure that there would be companies like Red Hat that would be very happy to pay him to do exactly that.
  - lmkg 14y ago
    I think it's a good thing for Python that Guido doesn't work on it full-time, and instead keeps his hands dirty with other projects. It allows him better exposure to the experience and perspective of regular Python users, and the sorts of problems that they use Python to deal with on a day-to-day basis.
    - slurgfest 14y ago
      The App Engine team at Google isn't really "regular Python users".
      - dangayle 14y ago
        No, but the thousands of people who use it and come up with problems are.
        slurgfest 14y ago
        That has nothing to do with it. GP said that it's good for Python that Guido doesn't work on it full-time, and instead keeps his hands dirty with other projects. But this experience of Guido's doesn't really expose him to 'thousands of people' any more than looking at the Python issue tracker would.
  - jaimebuelta 14y ago
    Maybe GvR is not interested in working only on Python language design, and wants to see other kind of projects. I mean, I am sure he has reached the point that he can pretty much decided what to do, so if he hasn't go to be a "full time language designer" is probably because he don't want to, not he doesn't have the opportunity.
- dorkrawk 14y ago
  I would assume that someone like Guido would be really valuable when architecting complex project written in Python. Maybe he won't be directly writing a bunch of small features, but at the scale Dropbox works at some REALLY good code reviews and language-related design decisions could produce big dividends.
  - abraham 14y ago
    Code reviews and design decisions can get old though. Sometimes you just want to write a bunch of code.
- wilfra 14y ago
  Probably very similar to why Universities want Nobel Laureates on the faculty. Sure, they want their brainpower, but it's also huge for prestige and a symbol to the World of what a great University they are. This will probably help greatly with recruiting. What Python engineer wouldn't want to work with him?
  - jonknee 14y ago
    > This will probably help greatly with recruiting. What Python engineer wouldn't want to work with him? Bingo. And it will make water cooler talk about the GIL a lot more interesting.
- j_baker 14y ago
  Having worked with Guido on App Engine, I believe I can answer this. Just because someone wrote a language doesn't mean they have no other talents as engineers. I will say that apart from being a good language writer, he is also a good Engineer. For us having so much invested in Python, Guido has been an important part of App Engine. But even if that wasn't true (as it may be for Dropbox), having well-known programmers is an important way of marketing to other engineers, be they customers or potential hires. TL;DR - App Engine got great use out of Guido while he worked with us, and I'm sure Dropbox will too.
  - nostrademons 14y ago
    Guido wrote the NDB framework for AppEngine, which, as an AppEngine user, I'd say has one of the most clever ways to do async requests that I've seen in any major language. I'm used to the C++ frameworks for async that are used in the main search stack, and switching to AppEngine and having things pretty much "just work" has been great. He also did Mondrian, which kicked off the trend toward web-based code-review and was a huge step forward from just critiquing patches over e-mail. Usually famous programmers get famous because they've done a lot of programming; that experience translates into some pretty cool programming chops.
  - intropic 14y ago
    I'm not sure how I can see Guido having the effect at Dropbox that he had at Google. Dropbox's engineering difficulties, while large, are not near that of Google's. Is this more of a Matz being hired by Heroku scenario, in name only sort of thing.
    - onedev 14y ago
      stop acting like you know abut Dropbox's engineering difficulties.
    - Evbn 14y ago
      They are language designers, not systems engineers. Any place with programmers has problems they can solve, and hopefully open source.
- bohm 14y ago
  I've worked on the Dropbox client back in 2009 and I can tell you that Dropbox has spent considerable resources optimizing Python, so there is actual python-related work to be done. As Rian Hunter mentions they've for example implemented a custom memory allocator: http://highscalability.com/blog/2011/3/14/6-lessons-from-dropbox-one-million-files-saved-every-15-minu.html http://highscalability.com/blog/2011/3/14/6-lessons-from-dro... and that's just one part of it. With a few hundred million installed machines or so, having Guido on board to make python work better for Dropbox-scale apps is a huge win for them (and python)!
- why-el 14y ago
  For me, its simply really, a language is itself a program with too many users, and Guido has demonstrated good design, scale, and engineering skills in building such a program.
- SiVal 14y ago
  This isn't just Dropbox deciding to hire Guido, it's Guido deciding to work for Dropbox and, perhaps most interestingly, deciding NOT to work for Google anymore. Surely a company the size (and type) of Google could come up with some pretty amazing projects for an engineer like Guido to work on if he got bored but, for some reason, Guido left. The reason could be something as boring as a big raise or a shorter commute, or something more interesting (a new internal policy to start replacing Python with Go, a clash with one of the big shots that leaves Guido forever on the shelf in the celebrity trophy case, or whatever.) I'll have to admit I'm curious.
  - kamkazemoose 14y ago
    It could just be that Google was too big. Maybe Guido just wanted to be the Big Man on Campus. Google is filled with brilliant/famous engineers. Dropbox is much smaller so going to a smaller company, he can have a much larger impact. Just a theory though, there are tons of possibilities.
  - cpsales 14y ago
    Google has a reputation for being cliquey. I've also noticed a tendency toward trying very hard to make your coworkers look stupid rather than trying to look smart by actually accomplishing things. I'm sure it depends on where you're working, but there seems to be a lot of that Marissa Mayer "excellence means putting other people down" attitude. And because of that, there is a lot of mediocre talent at Google despite its reputation. I have no idea whether any of this has to do with Guido's decision, a lot of engineers like to change jobs for all sorts of reasons, sometimes for the sake of it, but I'd probably prefer Dropbox to Google as well.
spaghetti 14y ago
This is great Dropbox PR. Also I'd imagine DB Python developers are excited!
untog 14y ago
"the adventure found at a nimble 250-person startup like Dropbox becomes more tempting" What is the definition of a startup these days, anyway?
- debacle 14y ago
  Are you saying that a start-up can't have more than a certain number of employees?
  - alokhar 14y ago
    Well, I'm sure there is a point when a startup has started up.
  - untog 14y ago
    It's a genuine question. To my mind, a startup has a small number of employees and not very much money. This is hardly the first time I've heard of a company with >100 employees described as a startup, so I'm interested to know what people's definitions are.
    - achompas 14y ago
      People were tossing it around to describe a 400-person Twitter team in 2010 or 2011 (can't remember which).
    - rm999 14y ago
      As long as we are on HN, might as well as cite PG on what a startup is: http://paulgraham.com/growth.html http://paulgraham.com/growth.html >A startup is a company designed to grow fast. Being newly founded does not in itself make a company a startup. Nor is it necessary for a startup to work on technology, or take venture funding, or have some sort of "exit." The only essential thing is growth. Everything else we associate with startups follows from growth.
    - debacle 14y ago
      Being a start-up really has nothing to do with number of employees.
krosaen 14y ago
I was always impressed by how much code Guido wrote at Google, he definitely isn't afraid to get his hands dirty.
- spaghetti 14y ago
  Wow if he really did contribute a lot (which I don't doubt at all) then how did Google let him get away? I'd imagine his lifestyle there was pretty nice.
  - tonfa 14y ago
    What do you think Google could have done?
    - pyre 14y ago
      Figure out why he wanted to leave, and see if they could remedy it (e.g. more money; different challenges; etc).
      - kyllo 14y ago
        Yeah but the problem is, reasons for a career change are highly personal, and by the time the employee wants to leave, it's usually already too late to keep them by sweetening the deal. The only way to know is to ask Guido himself.
      - loganfrederick 14y ago
        Pretty sure someone like Guido is, at this point, not motivated by money. If there was a challenge he wanted to undertake at Google, I'm sure they'd give it to him already. He probably wanted to participate in growing another new tech company that has a lot of potential. That's an opportunity Google would find hard to counter.
        pyre 14y ago
        Sorry, my statement was more generic. I wasn't trying to say that Guido is motivated by money, just that these are common ways to get someone to stay if that is indeed the issue that makes them want to leave. On the issue of challenges, maybe Guido has more pull on this, but there were recently some articles/discussion on HN about Google's hiring practices. They might hire you based on your PhD in databases, and then have you writing shell scripts for work because some randomized 'sorting hat' tells you what group you end up in. It's possible that even Guido doesn't have enough pull at Google to overcome this. :-\
arocks 14y ago
A decade ago, Python being widely used in Google and the creator of Python being employed by the company was a big endorsement for the language. Now Python is quite mainstream. Actually, Guido was allowed to devote 50% of his time at Google for Python. Hope the good work continues at Dropbox.
Sukotto 14y ago
See also: https://tech.dropbox.com/2012/12/welcome-guido/ https://tech.dropbox.com/2012/12/welcome-guido/
- mark-r 14y ago
  "Some people only need to be introduced by their first name" - maybe so, but it would have been nice for them to mention it at least once.
  - brian_cloutier 14y ago
    They did. They even linked to wikipedia pages on him twice.
    - callmevlad 14y ago
      I think the parent was referring to his full name. "Guido" appears 7 times on that page, "Rossum" appears 0 times in text.
      - mark-r 14y ago
        Yes, I was referring to the "van Rossum" part of his name. Sorry for not being clear.
Kilimanjaro 14y ago
Why Guido left? That's the question.
- Kilimanjaro 14y ago
  If I was a language designer looking for a change, I'd go to Yosemite and apply as park ranger. That would be a change. But dropbox?
  - 16s 14y ago
    Would be nice to get away from it all for a few months. Being a park ranger (for awhile) would be a nice break from a high-tech lifestyle.
- shadowmatter 14y ago
  Speaking as an ex-Googler, when I left, Python was largely relegated to glue code, scripts, internal projects, and App Engine -- consumer-facing frontends were written in Java, and backends in C++. He probably wanted to move to a company where Python was more pervasive, and he felt like he could have more of an impact, given that he _is_ the BDFL.
  - lawnchair_larry 14y ago
    Why is Python being phased out?
    - shadowmatter 14y ago
      Python wasn't phased out of consumer-facing applications because it was never in. Google has a lot of machines, but those machines receive a lot of traffic. Efficiency matters, and byte-for-byte, cycle-for-cycle, Java is more efficient than Python. Don't ask me why Google didn't throw lots of resources at making Python more efficient like they did with JS and V8. I often wonder that myself.
      - 14y ago
natural219 14y ago
Python has been a backbone of Dropbox since its early days as it allowed the startup to write code once but deploy it across platforms. Can anybody elaborate on this? Is the argument that Python is cross-platform because everybody uses GNU tools on every platform, or are there other reasons why Python is more cross-platform than other languages?
- Thrymr 14y ago
  The "batteries included" philosophy and commitment to making CPython work on multiple platforms has gone a long way. I don't think it has much to do with GNU tools specifically. An interview with Guido himself that discusses some of the multiplatform emphasis in the development of python: http://oreilly.com/pub/a/oreilly/frank/rossum_1099.html http://oreilly.com/pub/a/oreilly/frank/rossum_1099.html
- bsg75 14y ago
  Perhaps as Python has had Windows installers for a longer period of time? If me memory serves me correctly, Python has had simple Windows binary install packages (from Python.org and ActiveState) longer that most other scripting languages in the same class, that did not need require an additional layer like Cygwin.
- kyllo 14y ago
  Yeah, I don't think that trait distinguishes Python from Ruby or Perl, or even Java, for that matter. Cross-platform compatibility is an advantage of interpreted languages in general.
  - Nikaido 14y ago
    Not if we're talking about the real world (implementation), rather than the theoretical capability of a language in itself. Perl and Ruby don't see much love on Windows, particularly with GUI toolkits and the like. Python is the only one of the three that feels comfortable using on Windows, from the skeleton of the app down to actually distributing it. Java is really good at cross platform apps though. This is one of the few things that irks me in programming communities, often you'll seen criticism or praise of a point in a language, and then some language lawyer comes and talks about what said language can do in theory, rather than looking at the practicalities of actual, real world implementations, the community and culture surrounding it and so on. No one gives a crap if any dynamic language COULD be made to work the right way on many OS, people care if the work is done, not if it COULD be done. The worst offenders are of course people victim of the sufficiently smart compiler curse.
citricsquid 14y ago
Would someone like this be paid based on their fame and/or positive PR value, or would they be paid based on position just like everyone else? I've always wondered if these "programming celebrities" make substantially more just based on their personal brand, or if their personal brand just affords them the opportunity to have any job they so desire (but with the "standard" pay)
- napoleond 14y ago
  That would be up to them, wouldn't it? I mean, if you could get a job anywhere you wanted and money was the most important differentiator, there would be nothing stopping you from increasing your price until you had sufficiently decreased your options.
- staunch 14y ago
  I think most people treat it like hiring an executive, even if they're technically not one. They'll get significantly higher salary, equity, and bonuses.
scottmp10 14y ago
FWIW, Guido's role at Google wasn't specific to Python. He worked on real product teams and contributed much more than his Python expertise. The article seems to think that Dropbox hired him for his thorough knowledge of Python, which probably had some role in the hiring decision, but I expect that the primary motivation was to acquire an excellent engineer.
6ren 14y ago
I've long held the theory that Dropbox's long-term secret plan is to host apps - as they already have the data, this will effectively make them the fabled "internet OS". Having Guido on board to make python its systems language makes sense - and would be enough to tempt him away from google.
aviswanathan 14y ago
Dang, Dropbox is stealing talent from every direction.
- nXqd 14y ago
  They not only steal but steal at very good timing. Since Google will give their focus to javascript and go from now on :)
  - eric_bullington 14y ago
    Go, yes. Javascript, I'm not so sure: http://code.google.com/p/dart/ http://code.google.com/p/dart/
    - Evbn 14y ago
      Compare Googles recentbJS publications with their recent Dart publications.
sjg007 14y ago
It's more interesting that he left Google.
tomkit 14y ago
I think it's been about a year since he gave his Python talk at Dropbox. I suppose they also used that opportunity to begin to recruit him.
RenegadeHero 14y ago
It always strikes me as odd when something like this happens. Guido is still working nine-to-fives and Drew never has to work again. Can someone tell me why a brilliant person like Guido isn't worth a billion dollars? Have tons of fancy cars and a fancy house? Has to work for another company?
- kyllo 14y ago
  Because the stuff he built is open source? I'm sure he gets paid a high salary for his work, but he's still an engineer, not a founder. And maybe he likes working in an office?
- napoleond 14y ago
  I know nothing about Guido outside of his work with Python but I assume he's not hurting for money at all. Nevertheless, our capitalist system does not reward people for brilliance alone; it rewards people for taking risks. Some very wealthy people are still being rewarded for the risks of their ancestors, and others have managed to keep wealth gathered in different economic systems, but that is generally how new wealth is created in our economy today. (By definition, risk takers are collectively expected to fail more often than they succeed. There is probably some level of intelligence below which success rates drop even further, but I would be surprised to see any strong correlation between success rates and intelligence above that level.)
  - AlexandrB 14y ago
    I don't get it. How is creating a new programming language in your spare time not a risk? You're spending valuable time creating something that is likely to fail (see the scores of niche languages no one uses). I think what you mean by "risk" is something very specific: financial risk. If Guido had instead put time and, more importantly, money into starting a "lifestyle" startup on the side, he would have been financially rewarded if successful.
    - napoleond 14y ago
      We were discussing financial success; I assumed financial risk was implicit. Investing time in the creation of a new programming language is likely to pay off in many other ways, but the potential financial rewards are very low and therefore so is the element of financial risk. People tend to overestimate the amount of money required to start a successful business.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
cr4zy 14y ago
Guido's last commit? http://code.google.com/p/rietveld/source/detail?r=f66cc9030489ea92a2e699a0f1a68a854f1d064c# http://code.google.com/p/rietveld/source/detail?r=f66cc90304...
- briancurtin 14y ago
  Very doubtful. I would find it hard to believe that he hasn't committed code in a week. Anyway, most of what he was working on was AppEngine itself.
kibwen 14y ago
I wonder, will Dropbox still allocate 50% of Guido's time toward Python development? Further, donning our tinfoil hats, is it reasonable to suspect that Google is phasing out the use of Python internally? I've heard rumors that Python is no longer permitted for new projects within Google; hoping some Googlers here can confirm or deny this.
- brandon 14y ago
  No such blanket prohibition currently exists.
  - SimHacker 14y ago
    Are any of those words weasel words? "blanket"? "currently"?
    - koide 14y ago
      By themselves, no. Now, it depends on if he actually knows more than what he stated. They could be weasel words if he actually knows on some future date such a prohibition will be made, or that they are currently prohibiting Python on some level. My suspicion is that he was trying to be specific, not weasel-like.
    - brandon 14y ago
      I am happy to clarify! By "blanket" I mean to say that there's no organization-wide policy. I don't know of any specific cases, but I would not be shocked if certain groups within Google have stricter policies in this area. I was just trying to be specific by saying "currently"
- freyr 14y ago
  Any idea why they would phase out Python? Internal promotion of Go, or problems with Python?
  - Evbn 14y ago
    Or internet commentators making stuff up?
gamebit07 14y ago
1. Will GO replace Python? 2. What seems to be happening to ndb.models in near future? 3. Will Guido leaving Google affect webapp2 in any way?
nXqd 14y ago
Great news for Dropbox, I cannot wait to see what Guido will do for Dropbox.
DigitalSea 14y ago
Speechless. This is definitely one of the best decisions that Dropbox will probably ever make. Not only will this mean that Dropbox can hire other equally great Python developers, but as a company you can't get any more humbling than, "hey we hired the guy who wrote the programming language this site is based on and makes its money from" Guido is an exceptional engineer as well, not just a guy who knows Python really well. The dude is seriously one of the rare gems in the community.
- SimHacker 14y ago
  All that, plus the fact that they hired him AWAY from Google. Matz is one of the "rare gems" in the Ruby community. So doesn't that make Guido one of the "rare eggs" in the Python community? ;)
  - mcherm 14y ago
    Groan
  - tedchs 14y ago
    Your joke made me literally laugh out loud in the middle of a coffee shop. Bravo, sir.
wheels 14y ago
Kind of a quirky note, but now the creators of all of the most popular web languages (Ruby, PHP and Python) have had a stint at YC companies: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2756314 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2756314 http://techcrunch.com/2010/04/27/php-founder-rasmus-lerdorf-joins-group-payments-startup-wepay/ http://techcrunch.com/2010/04/27/php-founder-rasmus-lerdorf-...
- exit 14y ago
  Brendan Eich?
- justinator 14y ago
  Awww, Larry's in the corner, sobbing. It's OK, Larry, we still like you.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
TommyDANGerous 14y ago
Guido is a boss.
signa11 14y ago
interesting (to say the least). does it mean that Go is taking prominence at GOOG ?
silentmars 14y ago
I like Google... And Dropbox is also good. I don't know how I'm supposed to feel! HN always tells me who the villain in a story is. Someone please help!
- wilfra 14y ago
  The villains appear to be Bjarne Stroustrup and James Gosling - perhaps Robert Griesemer, Rob Pike and Ken Thompson as well.
lispython 14y ago
I heard from a friend who talked with Guido this year, he couldn't let Google add Python to Android and Chrome, this make him disappointed.
- ralph 14y ago
  "couldn't let" is odd. Do you mean "get", IOW persuade Google to add Python.
  - lispython 14y ago
    Thanks, I mean "get".
- rdtsc 14y ago
  Well that was pretty clearly stated at Pycon 2012. Someone asked Guido that question he answered pretty diplomatically that it was a "political decision" _but_ you could tell it was a issue he cared by the tone of his voice.
adulau 14y ago
It's not uncommon to see staff from Google going to another small company and then some months later, the company is acquired by Google...
- spaghetti 14y ago
  I agree this is true for small companies. However Dropbox is not a small company by most measures. Also pg's remarks about how you couldn't acquire Dropbox or Airbnb for (some large dollar amount I forget) lead me to believe Google won't be acquiring them. I'd imagine Google wants to acquire them. However I doubt Drew Houston would go that route.
tzury 14y ago
Two comments: IMHO, Python would have been in a far better place if Guido and his team would have been getting paid to maintain and evolve Python, the language, rather than apps and platforms based on Python. I think in the early days at Google he was able to do so, later, appengine took most of his time. Dropbox is still a startup - despite the substantial investments rounds - since it is still relying on external money (investments) to grow.

586 points by dko 14y ago

I'll be very interested to find out what role Guido will take up at dropbox. When someone like Matz/ Guido/ etc gets hired, what do their job responsibilities, for the community include exactly? Are language writer hires such as this purely symbolic?

setheron 14y ago
my thoughts exactly. I feel like it's a status symbol for a comapany. They are most likely busy giving talks and lectures to do any actual work. Maybe their value is in the odd meeting where they can voice some input. I've never had the pleasure of being in the room with giants such as these so I wouldn't know sadly.
- ChuckMcM 14y ago
  There is a joke in Silicon Valley that one of the levels of success is "Your new company issues a press release that you've been hired." It goes something like: You know you are successful in Silicon Valley when: followed by silly things like "You are Time's Man of the Year" or "On Wired's most Influential list" that sort of thing.
  - kyllo 14y ago
    I guess that's why it's called "Silicon Valley" rather than "Sense of Humor Valley."
- mememememememe 14y ago
  What does he do at Google exactly? I thought he was more like giving talk, optimizing Python and consulting Python engineers.
- jaimebuelta 14y ago
  I sincerely hope that he will write some code. Keeping him busy just lecturing and giving talks will be like hiring Michael Jordan only to play baseball...
theorique 14y ago
Guy Steele's work at Oracle (previously Sun) was in the area of language design, but companies at that scale can afford a dedicated R+D presence.
herge 14y ago
If Guido van Rossum wanted to work on python full time, I am sure that there would be companies like Red Hat that would be very happy to pay him to do exactly that.
- lmkg 14y ago
  I think it's a good thing for Python that Guido doesn't work on it full-time, and instead keeps his hands dirty with other projects. It allows him better exposure to the experience and perspective of regular Python users, and the sorts of problems that they use Python to deal with on a day-to-day basis.
  - slurgfest 14y ago
    The App Engine team at Google isn't really "regular Python users".
    - dangayle 14y ago
      No, but the thousands of people who use it and come up with problems are.
      - slurgfest 14y ago
        That has nothing to do with it. GP said that it's good for Python that Guido doesn't work on it full-time, and instead keeps his hands dirty with other projects. But this experience of Guido's doesn't really expose him to 'thousands of people' any more than looking at the Python issue tracker would.
- jaimebuelta 14y ago
  Maybe GvR is not interested in working only on Python language design, and wants to see other kind of projects. I mean, I am sure he has reached the point that he can pretty much decided what to do, so if he hasn't go to be a "full time language designer" is probably because he don't want to, not he doesn't have the opportunity.
dorkrawk 14y ago
I would assume that someone like Guido would be really valuable when architecting complex project written in Python. Maybe he won't be directly writing a bunch of small features, but at the scale Dropbox works at some REALLY good code reviews and language-related design decisions could produce big dividends.
- abraham 14y ago
  Code reviews and design decisions can get old though. Sometimes you just want to write a bunch of code.
wilfra 14y ago
Probably very similar to why Universities want Nobel Laureates on the faculty. Sure, they want their brainpower, but it's also huge for prestige and a symbol to the World of what a great University they are. This will probably help greatly with recruiting. What Python engineer wouldn't want to work with him?
- jonknee 14y ago
  > This will probably help greatly with recruiting. What Python engineer wouldn't want to work with him? Bingo. And it will make water cooler talk about the GIL a lot more interesting.
j_baker 14y ago
Having worked with Guido on App Engine, I believe I can answer this. Just because someone wrote a language doesn't mean they have no other talents as engineers. I will say that apart from being a good language writer, he is also a good Engineer. For us having so much invested in Python, Guido has been an important part of App Engine. But even if that wasn't true (as it may be for Dropbox), having well-known programmers is an important way of marketing to other engineers, be they customers or potential hires. TL;DR - App Engine got great use out of Guido while he worked with us, and I'm sure Dropbox will too.
- nostrademons 14y ago
  Guido wrote the NDB framework for AppEngine, which, as an AppEngine user, I'd say has one of the most clever ways to do async requests that I've seen in any major language. I'm used to the C++ frameworks for async that are used in the main search stack, and switching to AppEngine and having things pretty much "just work" has been great. He also did Mondrian, which kicked off the trend toward web-based code-review and was a huge step forward from just critiquing patches over e-mail. Usually famous programmers get famous because they've done a lot of programming; that experience translates into some pretty cool programming chops.
- intropic 14y ago
  I'm not sure how I can see Guido having the effect at Dropbox that he had at Google. Dropbox's engineering difficulties, while large, are not near that of Google's. Is this more of a Matz being hired by Heroku scenario, in name only sort of thing.
  - onedev 14y ago
    stop acting like you know abut Dropbox's engineering difficulties.
  - Evbn 14y ago
    They are language designers, not systems engineers. Any place with programmers has problems they can solve, and hopefully open source.
bohm 14y ago
I've worked on the Dropbox client back in 2009 and I can tell you that Dropbox has spent considerable resources optimizing Python, so there is actual python-related work to be done. As Rian Hunter mentions they've for example implemented a custom memory allocator: http://highscalability.com/blog/2011/3/14/6-lessons-from-dropbox-one-million-files-saved-every-15-minu.html http://highscalability.com/blog/2011/3/14/6-lessons-from-dro... and that's just one part of it. With a few hundred million installed machines or so, having Guido on board to make python work better for Dropbox-scale apps is a huge win for them (and python)!
why-el 14y ago
For me, its simply really, a language is itself a program with too many users, and Guido has demonstrated good design, scale, and engineering skills in building such a program.
SiVal 14y ago
This isn't just Dropbox deciding to hire Guido, it's Guido deciding to work for Dropbox and, perhaps most interestingly, deciding NOT to work for Google anymore. Surely a company the size (and type) of Google could come up with some pretty amazing projects for an engineer like Guido to work on if he got bored but, for some reason, Guido left. The reason could be something as boring as a big raise or a shorter commute, or something more interesting (a new internal policy to start replacing Python with Go, a clash with one of the big shots that leaves Guido forever on the shelf in the celebrity trophy case, or whatever.) I'll have to admit I'm curious.
- kamkazemoose 14y ago
  It could just be that Google was too big. Maybe Guido just wanted to be the Big Man on Campus. Google is filled with brilliant/famous engineers. Dropbox is much smaller so going to a smaller company, he can have a much larger impact. Just a theory though, there are tons of possibilities.
- cpsales 14y ago
  Google has a reputation for being cliquey. I've also noticed a tendency toward trying very hard to make your coworkers look stupid rather than trying to look smart by actually accomplishing things. I'm sure it depends on where you're working, but there seems to be a lot of that Marissa Mayer "excellence means putting other people down" attitude. And because of that, there is a lot of mediocre talent at Google despite its reputation. I have no idea whether any of this has to do with Guido's decision, a lot of engineers like to change jobs for all sorts of reasons, sometimes for the sake of it, but I'd probably prefer Dropbox to Google as well.

spaghetti 14y ago

This is great Dropbox PR. Also I'd imagine DB Python developers are excited!

untog 14y ago

"the adventure found at a nimble 250-person startup like Dropbox becomes more tempting" What is the definition of a startup these days, anyway?

debacle 14y ago
Are you saying that a start-up can't have more than a certain number of employees?
- alokhar 14y ago
  Well, I'm sure there is a point when a startup has started up.
- untog 14y ago
  It's a genuine question. To my mind, a startup has a small number of employees and not very much money. This is hardly the first time I've heard of a company with >100 employees described as a startup, so I'm interested to know what people's definitions are.
  - achompas 14y ago
    People were tossing it around to describe a 400-person Twitter team in 2010 or 2011 (can't remember which).
  - rm999 14y ago
    As long as we are on HN, might as well as cite PG on what a startup is: http://paulgraham.com/growth.html http://paulgraham.com/growth.html >A startup is a company designed to grow fast. Being newly founded does not in itself make a company a startup. Nor is it necessary for a startup to work on technology, or take venture funding, or have some sort of "exit." The only essential thing is growth. Everything else we associate with startups follows from growth.
  - debacle 14y ago
    Being a start-up really has nothing to do with number of employees.

krosaen 14y ago

I was always impressed by how much code Guido wrote at Google, he definitely isn't afraid to get his hands dirty.

spaghetti 14y ago
Wow if he really did contribute a lot (which I don't doubt at all) then how did Google let him get away? I'd imagine his lifestyle there was pretty nice.
- tonfa 14y ago
  What do you think Google could have done?
  - pyre 14y ago
    Figure out why he wanted to leave, and see if they could remedy it (e.g. more money; different challenges; etc).
    - kyllo 14y ago
      Yeah but the problem is, reasons for a career change are highly personal, and by the time the employee wants to leave, it's usually already too late to keep them by sweetening the deal. The only way to know is to ask Guido himself.
    - loganfrederick 14y ago
      Pretty sure someone like Guido is, at this point, not motivated by money. If there was a challenge he wanted to undertake at Google, I'm sure they'd give it to him already. He probably wanted to participate in growing another new tech company that has a lot of potential. That's an opportunity Google would find hard to counter.
      - pyre 14y ago
        Sorry, my statement was more generic. I wasn't trying to say that Guido is motivated by money, just that these are common ways to get someone to stay if that is indeed the issue that makes them want to leave. On the issue of challenges, maybe Guido has more pull on this, but there were recently some articles/discussion on HN about Google's hiring practices. They might hire you based on your PhD in databases, and then have you writing shell scripts for work because some randomized 'sorting hat' tells you what group you end up in. It's possible that even Guido doesn't have enough pull at Google to overcome this. :-\

arocks 14y ago

A decade ago, Python being widely used in Google and the creator of Python being employed by the company was a big endorsement for the language. Now Python is quite mainstream. Actually, Guido was allowed to devote 50% of his time at Google for Python. Hope the good work continues at Dropbox.

Sukotto 14y ago

See also: https://tech.dropbox.com/2012/12/welcome-guido/ https://tech.dropbox.com/2012/12/welcome-guido/

mark-r 14y ago
"Some people only need to be introduced by their first name" - maybe so, but it would have been nice for them to mention it at least once.
- brian_cloutier 14y ago
  They did. They even linked to wikipedia pages on him twice.
  - callmevlad 14y ago
    I think the parent was referring to his full name. "Guido" appears 7 times on that page, "Rossum" appears 0 times in text.
    - mark-r 14y ago
      Yes, I was referring to the "van Rossum" part of his name. Sorry for not being clear.

Kilimanjaro 14y ago

Why Guido left? That's the question.

Kilimanjaro 14y ago
If I was a language designer looking for a change, I'd go to Yosemite and apply as park ranger. That would be a change. But dropbox?
- 16s 14y ago
  Would be nice to get away from it all for a few months. Being a park ranger (for awhile) would be a nice break from a high-tech lifestyle.
shadowmatter 14y ago
Speaking as an ex-Googler, when I left, Python was largely relegated to glue code, scripts, internal projects, and App Engine -- consumer-facing frontends were written in Java, and backends in C++. He probably wanted to move to a company where Python was more pervasive, and he felt like he could have more of an impact, given that he _is_ the BDFL.
- lawnchair_larry 14y ago
  Why is Python being phased out?
  - shadowmatter 14y ago
    Python wasn't phased out of consumer-facing applications because it was never in. Google has a lot of machines, but those machines receive a lot of traffic. Efficiency matters, and byte-for-byte, cycle-for-cycle, Java is more efficient than Python. Don't ask me why Google didn't throw lots of resources at making Python more efficient like they did with JS and V8. I often wonder that myself.
    - 14y ago

natural219 14y ago

Python has been a backbone of Dropbox since its early days as it allowed the startup to write code once but deploy it across platforms. Can anybody elaborate on this? Is the argument that Python is cross-platform because everybody uses GNU tools on every platform, or are there other reasons why Python is more cross-platform than other languages?

Thrymr 14y ago
The "batteries included" philosophy and commitment to making CPython work on multiple platforms has gone a long way. I don't think it has much to do with GNU tools specifically. An interview with Guido himself that discusses some of the multiplatform emphasis in the development of python: http://oreilly.com/pub/a/oreilly/frank/rossum_1099.html http://oreilly.com/pub/a/oreilly/frank/rossum_1099.html
bsg75 14y ago
Perhaps as Python has had Windows installers for a longer period of time? If me memory serves me correctly, Python has had simple Windows binary install packages (from Python.org and ActiveState) longer that most other scripting languages in the same class, that did not need require an additional layer like Cygwin.
kyllo 14y ago
Yeah, I don't think that trait distinguishes Python from Ruby or Perl, or even Java, for that matter. Cross-platform compatibility is an advantage of interpreted languages in general.
- Nikaido 14y ago
  Not if we're talking about the real world (implementation), rather than the theoretical capability of a language in itself. Perl and Ruby don't see much love on Windows, particularly with GUI toolkits and the like. Python is the only one of the three that feels comfortable using on Windows, from the skeleton of the app down to actually distributing it. Java is really good at cross platform apps though. This is one of the few things that irks me in programming communities, often you'll seen criticism or praise of a point in a language, and then some language lawyer comes and talks about what said language can do in theory, rather than looking at the practicalities of actual, real world implementations, the community and culture surrounding it and so on. No one gives a crap if any dynamic language COULD be made to work the right way on many OS, people care if the work is done, not if it COULD be done. The worst offenders are of course people victim of the sufficiently smart compiler curse.

citricsquid 14y ago

Would someone like this be paid based on their fame and/or positive PR value, or would they be paid based on position just like everyone else? I've always wondered if these "programming celebrities" make substantially more just based on their personal brand, or if their personal brand just affords them the opportunity to have any job they so desire (but with the "standard" pay)

napoleond 14y ago
That would be up to them, wouldn't it? I mean, if you could get a job anywhere you wanted and money was the most important differentiator, there would be nothing stopping you from increasing your price until you had sufficiently decreased your options.
staunch 14y ago
I think most people treat it like hiring an executive, even if they're technically not one. They'll get significantly higher salary, equity, and bonuses.

scottmp10 14y ago

FWIW, Guido's role at Google wasn't specific to Python. He worked on real product teams and contributed much more than his Python expertise. The article seems to think that Dropbox hired him for his thorough knowledge of Python, which probably had some role in the hiring decision, but I expect that the primary motivation was to acquire an excellent engineer.

6ren 14y ago

I've long held the theory that Dropbox's long-term secret plan is to host apps - as they already have the data, this will effectively make them the fabled "internet OS". Having Guido on board to make python its systems language makes sense - and would be enough to tempt him away from google.

aviswanathan 14y ago

Dang, Dropbox is stealing talent from every direction.

nXqd 14y ago
They not only steal but steal at very good timing. Since Google will give their focus to javascript and go from now on :)
- eric_bullington 14y ago
  Go, yes. Javascript, I'm not so sure: http://code.google.com/p/dart/ http://code.google.com/p/dart/
  - Evbn 14y ago
    Compare Googles recentbJS publications with their recent Dart publications.

sjg007 14y ago

It's more interesting that he left Google.

tomkit 14y ago

I think it's been about a year since he gave his Python talk at Dropbox. I suppose they also used that opportunity to begin to recruit him.

RenegadeHero 14y ago

It always strikes me as odd when something like this happens. Guido is still working nine-to-fives and Drew never has to work again. Can someone tell me why a brilliant person like Guido isn't worth a billion dollars? Have tons of fancy cars and a fancy house? Has to work for another company?

kyllo 14y ago
Because the stuff he built is open source? I'm sure he gets paid a high salary for his work, but he's still an engineer, not a founder. And maybe he likes working in an office?
napoleond 14y ago
I know nothing about Guido outside of his work with Python but I assume he's not hurting for money at all. Nevertheless, our capitalist system does not reward people for brilliance alone; it rewards people for taking risks. Some very wealthy people are still being rewarded for the risks of their ancestors, and others have managed to keep wealth gathered in different economic systems, but that is generally how new wealth is created in our economy today. (By definition, risk takers are collectively expected to fail more often than they succeed. There is probably some level of intelligence below which success rates drop even further, but I would be surprised to see any strong correlation between success rates and intelligence above that level.)
- AlexandrB 14y ago
  I don't get it. How is creating a new programming language in your spare time not a risk? You're spending valuable time creating something that is likely to fail (see the scores of niche languages no one uses). I think what you mean by "risk" is something very specific: financial risk. If Guido had instead put time and, more importantly, money into starting a "lifestyle" startup on the side, he would have been financially rewarded if successful.
  - napoleond 14y ago
    We were discussing financial success; I assumed financial risk was implicit. Investing time in the creation of a new programming language is likely to pay off in many other ways, but the potential financial rewards are very low and therefore so is the element of financial risk. People tend to overestimate the amount of money required to start a successful business.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

cr4zy 14y ago

Guido's last commit? http://code.google.com/p/rietveld/source/detail?r=f66cc9030489ea92a2e699a0f1a68a854f1d064c# http://code.google.com/p/rietveld/source/detail?r=f66cc90304...

briancurtin 14y ago
Very doubtful. I would find it hard to believe that he hasn't committed code in a week. Anyway, most of what he was working on was AppEngine itself.

kibwen 14y ago

I wonder, will Dropbox still allocate 50% of Guido's time toward Python development? Further, donning our tinfoil hats, is it reasonable to suspect that Google is phasing out the use of Python internally? I've heard rumors that Python is no longer permitted for new projects within Google; hoping some Googlers here can confirm or deny this.

brandon 14y ago
No such blanket prohibition currently exists.
- SimHacker 14y ago
  Are any of those words weasel words? "blanket"? "currently"?
  - koide 14y ago
    By themselves, no. Now, it depends on if he actually knows more than what he stated. They could be weasel words if he actually knows on some future date such a prohibition will be made, or that they are currently prohibiting Python on some level. My suspicion is that he was trying to be specific, not weasel-like.
  - brandon 14y ago
    I am happy to clarify! By "blanket" I mean to say that there's no organization-wide policy. I don't know of any specific cases, but I would not be shocked if certain groups within Google have stricter policies in this area. I was just trying to be specific by saying "currently"
freyr 14y ago
Any idea why they would phase out Python? Internal promotion of Go, or problems with Python?
- Evbn 14y ago
  Or internet commentators making stuff up?

gamebit07 14y ago

1. Will GO replace Python? 2. What seems to be happening to ndb.models in near future? 3. Will Guido leaving Google affect webapp2 in any way?

nXqd 14y ago

Great news for Dropbox, I cannot wait to see what Guido will do for Dropbox.

DigitalSea 14y ago

Speechless. This is definitely one of the best decisions that Dropbox will probably ever make. Not only will this mean that Dropbox can hire other equally great Python developers, but as a company you can't get any more humbling than, "hey we hired the guy who wrote the programming language this site is based on and makes its money from" Guido is an exceptional engineer as well, not just a guy who knows Python really well. The dude is seriously one of the rare gems in the community.

SimHacker 14y ago
All that, plus the fact that they hired him AWAY from Google. Matz is one of the "rare gems" in the Ruby community. So doesn't that make Guido one of the "rare eggs" in the Python community? ;)
- mcherm 14y ago
  Groan
- tedchs 14y ago
  Your joke made me literally laugh out loud in the middle of a coffee shop. Bravo, sir.

wheels 14y ago

Kind of a quirky note, but now the creators of all of the most popular web languages (Ruby, PHP and Python) have had a stint at YC companies: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2756314 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2756314 http://techcrunch.com/2010/04/27/php-founder-rasmus-lerdorf-joins-group-payments-startup-wepay/ http://techcrunch.com/2010/04/27/php-founder-rasmus-lerdorf-...

exit 14y ago
Brendan Eich?
justinator 14y ago
Awww, Larry's in the corner, sobbing. It's OK, Larry, we still like you.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]

TommyDANGerous 14y ago

Guido is a boss.

signa11 14y ago

interesting (to say the least). does it mean that Go is taking prominence at GOOG ?

silentmars 14y ago

I like Google... And Dropbox is also good. I don't know how I'm supposed to feel! HN always tells me who the villain in a story is. Someone please help!

wilfra 14y ago
The villains appear to be Bjarne Stroustrup and James Gosling - perhaps Robert Griesemer, Rob Pike and Ken Thompson as well.

lispython 14y ago

I heard from a friend who talked with Guido this year, he couldn't let Google add Python to Android and Chrome, this make him disappointed.

ralph 14y ago
"couldn't let" is odd. Do you mean "get", IOW persuade Google to add Python.
- lispython 14y ago
  Thanks, I mean "get".
rdtsc 14y ago
Well that was pretty clearly stated at Pycon 2012. Someone asked Guido that question he answered pretty diplomatically that it was a "political decision" _but_ you could tell it was a issue he cared by the tone of his voice.

adulau 14y ago

It's not uncommon to see staff from Google going to another small company and then some months later, the company is acquired by Google...

spaghetti 14y ago
I agree this is true for small companies. However Dropbox is not a small company by most measures. Also pg's remarks about how you couldn't acquire Dropbox or Airbnb for (some large dollar amount I forget) lead me to believe Google won't be acquiring them. I'd imagine Google wants to acquire them. However I doubt Drew Houston would go that route.

tzury 14y ago

Two comments: IMHO, Python would have been in a far better place if Guido and his team would have been getting paid to maintain and evolve Python, the language, rather than apps and platforms based on Python. I think in the early days at Google he was able to do so, later, appengine took most of his time. Dropbox is still a startup - despite the substantial investments rounds - since it is still relying on external money (investments) to grow.