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That and misappropriating a lot of the taxes of other countries in the process

by breppp 3mo ago

alephnerd 3mo ago
It's not misappropriation. Other countries within the EU could be much more business incorporation and FDI friendly, and IDA Ireland tends to be one of the more competent trade promotion agencies within the EU. Why should Ireland undermine 13% of it's GDP [0]? Edit: can't reply > Telling American multinationals you will have them pay 0 tax isn't exactly a "tax policy" as such Ireland's corporate tax rate is 12.5% but drops to 6.25% if it's qualified R&D and IP income with an added 35% R&D tax credit. It's attractive, but CEE states like Poland and Czechia can (and often do) match that. The biggest attraction for Ireland is the fact that everyone speaks English in Ireland, and Irish tax and corporate legal firms have worked with American firms since the 1990s, which reduces the headache. > Or to 0.005% if you're Apple Which ended in 2014, yet Ireland still remains attractive for tech FDI. At the end of the day, Ireland executed much better than it's developmental peers in the 1990s (Spain, Czechia, Russia, Ukraine, Cyprus, Greece, Argentine, and Libya in 1991 based on HDI) simply because it was much more business friendly. [0] - https://www.trade.gov/country-commercial-guides/ireland-digital-economy https://www.trade.gov/country-commercial-guides/ireland-digi...
- stefan_ 3mo ago
  Telling American multinationals you will have them pay 0 tax isn't exactly a "tax policy" as such.
  - infinite_spin 3mo ago
    A parking structure owned by a shopping center might offer free parking in order to drive business goals. That's as much a policy as it would be if they were to charge a fee.
- Hamuko 3mo ago
  >Ireland's corporate tax rate is 12.5% but drops to 6.25% if it's qualified R&D and IP income with an added 35% R&D tax credit. Or to 0.005% if you're Apple. >The Commission's investigation concluded that Ireland granted illegal tax benefits to Apple, which enabled it to pay substantially less tax than other businesses over many years. In fact, this selective treatment allowed Apple to pay an effective corporate tax rate of 1 per cent on its European profits in 2003 down to 0.005 per cent in 2014.
- bawolff 3mo ago
  > Why should Ireland undermine 13% of it's GDP Undercutting other countries on tax policy tends to piss them off. So it comes down to whether the benefits of the policy outweigh the blowback. The 13% of GDP figure can be a bit misleading as GDP from being a tax haven tends to help the average irish citizen a lot less than more traditional ecconomic activity.
  - alephnerd 3mo ago
    > The 13% of GDP figure can be a bit misleading as GDP from being a tax haven tends to help the average irish citizen a lot less than more traditional ecconomic activity As I pointed out, if Ireland didn't adopt it's tech FDI policy which it did in the 1990s, it would be a much poorer country today. Going from Libyan, Soviet, and Greek to Finland level living standards in 30 years was not guaranteed, and it was Ireland's business friendly policies is what ensured it became a tech hub today and didn't fall into the middle income trap - especially in 2008-12 when Ireland was also in the midst of a Greece style economic meltdown (remember the PIGS?) Ireland was a developing country in the 1990s, and if they executed better than then much richer Western European states like Germany, France, the UK, and Canada then so be it. > GDP from being a tax haven tends to help the average irish citizen a lot less than more traditional ecconomic activity. I've been using HDI which isn't severely impacted by GDP per capita. And even then, Ireland's median household income [0] is now significantly higher than the UK [1] despite living standard in the UK having been significantly higher than Ireland's until the 2010s because of Ireland's FDI policy. > Undercutting other countries on tax policy tends to piss them off Other EU member states such as Poland and Czechia also match Ireland's incentives when asked, which has helped both Czechia and Poland now catch up to historically richer France, Italy, and the UK. [0] - https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-silc/surveyonincomeandlivingconditionssilc2025/householdincome/ https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-silc/surv... [1] - https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/incomeandwealth/bulletins/householddisposableincomeandinequality/financialyearending2024 https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personal...
    - bawolff 3mo ago
      > As I pointed out, if Ireland didn't adopt it's tech FDI policy which it did in the 1990s, it would be a much poorer country today. Perhaps, but if you want to measure the effect it had on ordinary Irish people you should be using GNI not GDP. I'm not saying it had no effect, just that GDP is a misleading measure.
- breppp 3mo ago
  The low corporate tax might be fair although questionable, however the entire Double Irish Dutch Sandwich mechanism was a way to take taxes of other countries citizens
  - alephnerd 3mo ago
    The "Double Irish Dutch Sandwich" approach ended almost a decade ago as I mentioned, yet tech FDI remains strong and a hallmark of Ireland's economy. We're still investing in Ireland because IDA and Enterprise Ireland are competent. And at the end of the day, Luxembourg, Malta, Cyprus, Latvia, Slovenia, Estonia, Austria, Czechia, Hungary, Germany, Poland, Netherlands, and Croatia have all voted with or abstained in favor of Ireland when questions about Ireland's approach came up in the EU. The primary countries complaining have been France, Italy, and Spain.
    - breppp 3mo ago
      I thought that went on until 2020, in any case, sure after the corporate taxes of the entire world were funneled there and had created data centers and imported a workforce to Ireland, it is now a place worth investing in. However that does not make this construct any more moral

That and misappropriating a lot of the taxes of other countries in the process

by breppp 3mo ago

That and misappropriating a lot of the taxes of other countries in the process

It's not misappropriation. Other countries within the EU could be much more business incorporation and FDI friendly, and IDA Ireland tends to be one of the more competent trade promotion agencies within the EU. Why should Ireland undermine 13% of it's GDP [0]? Edit: can't reply > Telling American multinationals you will have them pay 0 tax isn't exactly a "tax policy" as such Ireland's corporate tax rate is 12.5% but drops to 6.25% if it's qualified R&D and IP income with an added 35% R&D tax credit. It's attractive, but CEE states like Poland and Czechia can (and often do) match that. The biggest attraction for Ireland is the fact that everyone speaks English in Ireland, and Irish tax and corporate legal firms have worked with American firms since the 1990s, which reduces the headache. > Or to 0.005% if you're Apple Which ended in 2014, yet Ireland still remains attractive for tech FDI. At the end of the day, Ireland executed much better than it's developmental peers in the 1990s (Spain, Czechia, Russia, Ukraine, Cyprus, Greece, Argentine, and Libya in 1991 based on HDI) simply because it was much more business friendly. [0] - https://www.trade.gov/country-commercial-guides/ireland-digital-economy https://www.trade.gov/country-commercial-guides/ireland-digi...

stefan_ 3mo ago
Telling American multinationals you will have them pay 0 tax isn't exactly a "tax policy" as such.
- infinite_spin 3mo ago
  A parking structure owned by a shopping center might offer free parking in order to drive business goals. That's as much a policy as it would be if they were to charge a fee.
Hamuko 3mo ago
>Ireland's corporate tax rate is 12.5% but drops to 6.25% if it's qualified R&D and IP income with an added 35% R&D tax credit. Or to 0.005% if you're Apple. >The Commission's investigation concluded that Ireland granted illegal tax benefits to Apple, which enabled it to pay substantially less tax than other businesses over many years. In fact, this selective treatment allowed Apple to pay an effective corporate tax rate of 1 per cent on its European profits in 2003 down to 0.005 per cent in 2014.
bawolff 3mo ago
> Why should Ireland undermine 13% of it's GDP Undercutting other countries on tax policy tends to piss them off. So it comes down to whether the benefits of the policy outweigh the blowback. The 13% of GDP figure can be a bit misleading as GDP from being a tax haven tends to help the average irish citizen a lot less than more traditional ecconomic activity.
- alephnerd 3mo ago
  > The 13% of GDP figure can be a bit misleading as GDP from being a tax haven tends to help the average irish citizen a lot less than more traditional ecconomic activity As I pointed out, if Ireland didn't adopt it's tech FDI policy which it did in the 1990s, it would be a much poorer country today. Going from Libyan, Soviet, and Greek to Finland level living standards in 30 years was not guaranteed, and it was Ireland's business friendly policies is what ensured it became a tech hub today and didn't fall into the middle income trap - especially in 2008-12 when Ireland was also in the midst of a Greece style economic meltdown (remember the PIGS?) Ireland was a developing country in the 1990s, and if they executed better than then much richer Western European states like Germany, France, the UK, and Canada then so be it. > GDP from being a tax haven tends to help the average irish citizen a lot less than more traditional ecconomic activity. I've been using HDI which isn't severely impacted by GDP per capita. And even then, Ireland's median household income [0] is now significantly higher than the UK [1] despite living standard in the UK having been significantly higher than Ireland's until the 2010s because of Ireland's FDI policy. > Undercutting other countries on tax policy tends to piss them off Other EU member states such as Poland and Czechia also match Ireland's incentives when asked, which has helped both Czechia and Poland now catch up to historically richer France, Italy, and the UK. [0] - https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-silc/surveyonincomeandlivingconditionssilc2025/householdincome/ https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-silc/surv... [1] - https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/incomeandwealth/bulletins/householddisposableincomeandinequality/financialyearending2024 https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personal...
  - bawolff 3mo ago
    > As I pointed out, if Ireland didn't adopt it's tech FDI policy which it did in the 1990s, it would be a much poorer country today. Perhaps, but if you want to measure the effect it had on ordinary Irish people you should be using GNI not GDP. I'm not saying it had no effect, just that GDP is a misleading measure.
breppp 3mo ago
The low corporate tax might be fair although questionable, however the entire Double Irish Dutch Sandwich mechanism was a way to take taxes of other countries citizens
- alephnerd 3mo ago
  The "Double Irish Dutch Sandwich" approach ended almost a decade ago as I mentioned, yet tech FDI remains strong and a hallmark of Ireland's economy. We're still investing in Ireland because IDA and Enterprise Ireland are competent. And at the end of the day, Luxembourg, Malta, Cyprus, Latvia, Slovenia, Estonia, Austria, Czechia, Hungary, Germany, Poland, Netherlands, and Croatia have all voted with or abstained in favor of Ireland when questions about Ireland's approach came up in the EU. The primary countries complaining have been France, Italy, and Spain.
  - breppp 3mo ago
    I thought that went on until 2020, in any case, sure after the corporate taxes of the entire world were funneled there and had created data centers and imported a workforce to Ireland, it is now a place worth investing in. However that does not make this construct any more moral