4 ms·

I’m not even sure I disagree with the argument, but this feels like a classical “DEI” argument FIRE would be skeptical of because it’s politically convenient.

I’m not even sure I disagree with the argument, but this feels like a classical “DEI” argument FIRE would be skeptical of because it’s politically convenient. What if there’s just something about academics (and I do actually think this is true) that is not attractive to conservative professionals. The prestige of academics has been falling. Salaries aren’t equivalent to the private sector. So why are we looking at equality of outcomes and assuming there’s a problem with equality of opportunity? Also and of course like this may be the most relevant point, the political realignment of the past 15 years has been around educational attainment! How can you design a Republican Party that specifically realigns around education level and not expect that to show up in academics. Why is it inherently bad that university faculty lean left?

delichon 3mo ago
> Why is it inherently bad that university faculty lean left? For one thing it loses the support of the other half of the country to fund and support higher education. People tend not to donate to or vote for institutions that they see as in opposition to their values. And they tend to discount the value of their degrees when hiring.
- verdverm 3mo ago
  Have we considered the reason might be self (de)selection? Perhaps people who see the world certain ways do (not) desire a life in academics.
  - deleted 3mo ago
    [deleted]
- techblueberry 3mo ago
  Sure, but you can argue the same thing about anything where there isn’t equality of outcomes.
like_any_other 3mo ago
> What if there’s just something about academics (and I do actually think this is true) that is not attractive to conservative professionals. Academia used to be much more politically balanced: https://www.independent.org/tir/2022-23-winter/the-hyperpoliticization-of-higher-ed/ https://www.independent.org/tir/2022-23-winter/the-hyperpoli... It would be very illuminating to compare academics' political leanings in other countries as well, but I am not aware of any such studies. Now it is basically officially banned to hire conservatives: Diversity Statements Required for One-Fifth of Academic Jobs - https://www.schoolinfosystem.org/2021/11/11/study-diversity-statements-required-for-one-fifth-of-academic-jobs/ https://www.schoolinfosystem.org/2021/11/11/study-diversity-... Even if hired, bias persists: The authors also submitted different test studies to different peer-review boards. The methodology was identical, and the variable was that the purported findings either went for, or against, the liberal worldview (for example, one found evidence of discrimination against minority groups, and another found evidence of "reverse discrimination" against straight white males). Despite equal methodological strengths, the studies that went against the liberal worldview were criticized and rejected, and those that went with it were not. - https://theweek.com/articles/441474/how-academias-liberal-bias-killing-social-science https://theweek.com/articles/441474/how-academias-liberal-bi... When polled, 4 in 10 academics admit to discriminating against conservatives: https://www.cspicenter.com/p/academic-freedom-in-crisis-punishment https://www.cspicenter.com/p/academic-freedom-in-crisis-puni... > So why are we [..] assuming there’s a problem with equality of opportunity? To answer your question: we're not assuming anything - they have official policies to that effect, they openly say so when polled, and it has been measured in studies.
- techblueberry 3mo ago
  I honestly don’t think you can prove directionality here. I 100% believe the country has gone too far in discounting traditional/conservative values. (On both the left and right, but I digress) And I think this divide is unhealthy for the future of the country. I think it would be healthier for the country if there was a greater balance in education. But I don’t think you can prove that the right in this country hasn’t itself opted out. You hear it in thought leaders at the top and bottom of the economic spectrum. More trade schools, less college. And all the like tech thought leaders valuing experience over education. Anyway Christopher Rufo is on a tear and the Trump administration has declared victory over woke, so maybe we’ll see the tides turn.
deleted 3mo ago
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dlcarrier 3mo ago
From FIRE's web page (https://www.fire.org/research-learn/diversity-equity-and-inclusion-statements-faq https://www.fire.org/research-learn/diversity-equity-and-inc...): We would also defend faculty members’ right to voluntarily support DEI measures and to discuss pedagogically relevant DEI issues in their classrooms. FIRE is pretty hard-lined on allowing free speech, and not compelling speech, regardless of what that speech is about or who's saying it. I don't know if any cases of pro-DEI speech being prohibited have come to the courts yet, but FIRE states that they are in support of pro-DEI speech. They have also shown to support pro-free-speech causes, regardless of the political party or politicians involved: https://www.fire.org/cases https://www.fire.org/cases

delichon 3mo ago

> Why is it inherently bad that university faculty lean left? For one thing it loses the support of the other half of the country to fund and support higher education. People tend not to donate to or vote for institutions that they see as in opposition to their values. And they tend to discount the value of their degrees when hiring.

verdverm 3mo ago
Have we considered the reason might be self (de)selection? Perhaps people who see the world certain ways do (not) desire a life in academics.
- deleted 3mo ago
  [deleted]
techblueberry 3mo ago
Sure, but you can argue the same thing about anything where there isn’t equality of outcomes.

like_any_other 3mo ago

> What if there’s just something about academics (and I do actually think this is true) that is not attractive to conservative professionals. Academia used to be much more politically balanced: https://www.independent.org/tir/2022-23-winter/the-hyperpoliticization-of-higher-ed/ https://www.independent.org/tir/2022-23-winter/the-hyperpoli... It would be very illuminating to compare academics' political leanings in other countries as well, but I am not aware of any such studies. Now it is basically officially banned to hire conservatives: Diversity Statements Required for One-Fifth of Academic Jobs - https://www.schoolinfosystem.org/2021/11/11/study-diversity-statements-required-for-one-fifth-of-academic-jobs/ https://www.schoolinfosystem.org/2021/11/11/study-diversity-... Even if hired, bias persists: The authors also submitted different test studies to different peer-review boards. The methodology was identical, and the variable was that the purported findings either went for, or against, the liberal worldview (for example, one found evidence of discrimination against minority groups, and another found evidence of "reverse discrimination" against straight white males). Despite equal methodological strengths, the studies that went against the liberal worldview were criticized and rejected, and those that went with it were not. - https://theweek.com/articles/441474/how-academias-liberal-bias-killing-social-science https://theweek.com/articles/441474/how-academias-liberal-bi... When polled, 4 in 10 academics admit to discriminating against conservatives: https://www.cspicenter.com/p/academic-freedom-in-crisis-punishment https://www.cspicenter.com/p/academic-freedom-in-crisis-puni... > So why are we [..] assuming there’s a problem with equality of opportunity? To answer your question: we're not assuming anything - they have official policies to that effect, they openly say so when polled, and it has been measured in studies.

techblueberry 3mo ago
I honestly don’t think you can prove directionality here. I 100% believe the country has gone too far in discounting traditional/conservative values. (On both the left and right, but I digress) And I think this divide is unhealthy for the future of the country. I think it would be healthier for the country if there was a greater balance in education. But I don’t think you can prove that the right in this country hasn’t itself opted out. You hear it in thought leaders at the top and bottom of the economic spectrum. More trade schools, less college. And all the like tech thought leaders valuing experience over education. Anyway Christopher Rufo is on a tear and the Trump administration has declared victory over woke, so maybe we’ll see the tides turn.

deleted 3mo ago

[deleted]

dlcarrier 3mo ago

From FIRE's web page (https://www.fire.org/research-learn/diversity-equity-and-inclusion-statements-faq https://www.fire.org/research-learn/diversity-equity-and-inc...): We would also defend faculty members’ right to voluntarily support DEI measures and to discuss pedagogically relevant DEI issues in their classrooms. FIRE is pretty hard-lined on allowing free speech, and not compelling speech, regardless of what that speech is about or who's saying it. I don't know if any cases of pro-DEI speech being prohibited have come to the courts yet, but FIRE states that they are in support of pro-DEI speech. They have also shown to support pro-free-speech causes, regardless of the political party or politicians involved: https://www.fire.org/cases https://www.fire.org/cases