6 ms·

I admit this leans into pedantry, but I think it's important not to conflate "amount of education received" with "amount of knowledge possessed". In the US our

by quacked 3mo ago

I admit this leans into pedantry, but I think it's important not to conflate "amount of education received" with "amount of knowledge possessed". In the US our people are more educated than they've ever been, but I wouldn't say they're more knowledgeable than ever. I completely agree that the more knowledgeable a society is the better off it is, but if the education industry is allowed to prop itself up with the widespread belief that more years of education necessarily result in a better-off population, you get the military-industrial-style propagation of institutions, loans, debt, and wasted time that we're familiar with today.

ndriscoll 3mo ago
To that point, how many university educated American adults have actually read, say, Locke? It's been freely and easily accessible for decades, e.g.: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/7370 https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/7370 How many university (liberal arts even) educated Americans have read the Federalist Papers? The Declaration of Independence? The Constitution?
- WillAdams 3mo ago
  Those texts were a standard part of grade school social studies when I was young, and my children read all in the course of a typical public education long before graduating.
  - ndriscoll 3mo ago
    They might be part of the curriculum, but apparently ~half the country doesn't know what we just celebrated[0], so I somehow doubt they actually did their reading. It's pretty easy to pass or even do well in classes without really engaging with the material at all, even at the university level. Like I got an A in a philosophy course by just reading the professor's notes on exam morning and spitting them back out on an essay. I've still never gone back and actually read Grotius. [0] https://www.npr.org/2026/07/03/nx-s1-5881451/cato-institute-250th-july-4th-constitution-declaration-of-independence-poll https://www.npr.org/2026/07/03/nx-s1-5881451/cato-institute-...
    - WillAdams 3mo ago
      By definition, half of the population is of below average intelligence. As my daughter said to her boyfriend in college, "Welcome to the upper half of the bell curve."
      - ndriscoll 3mo ago
        Right but that's just it: it's barely the upper half (over 40% of young people now get a degree apparently[0]), and the age breakdown indicates that 40% is also apparently the proportion of 18-29s that know we declared independence 250 years ago. So assuming continuity and rough correspondence of the two distributions, that's approximately the level of knowledge at the threshold of degree holders now. Actually the census data says ~43% get a degree and the article says 39% of 18-29s know what we celebrated, so presumably at least 4% (~9% of degree holders) are able to get a degree and don't know. If this is our bottom end, I get the sense that even above-average students (even of liberal arts) aren't reading Montesquieu or whatever image people try to evoke about highly educated societies. [0] https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2025/educational-attainment-data.html https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2025/educatio...
- aleph_minus_one 3mo ago
  > How many university (liberal arts even) educated Americans have read the Federalist Papers? The Declaration of Independence? The Constitution? To give a counterpoint: C. P. Snow. The Two Cultures and the Scientific Revolution. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Two_Cultures https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Two_Cultures (overview) > https://web.archive.org/web/20170508085255/https://www.rbkc.gov.uk/pdf/Rede-lecture-2-cultures.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20170508085255/https://www.rbkc....
  - ndriscoll 3mo ago
    I don't think that's really a counterpoint. My point was that I get the impression that even those in the humanities seem to be losing familiarity with liberal ideas. So it's even worse now (or we've just lied to ourselves as we pretend to expand access to higher education).
    - UncleMeat 3mo ago
      Where do you get this impression from? Faculty? Published research? My observation is that people working in the humanities have a deeper and wider reading list than at any point in prior history. If you are complaining about students then I don't see what the problem is with not having read these particular texts. The humanities is so incredibly wide and it is good that we have widened curricula to not just focus everybody down a particular reading list of western intellectual tradition. A humanities education isn't there to just pump out classical liberals. A polisci major who studies ancient chinese politics or 21st century dictatorships is just as legitimate as somebody who studies Locke and western liberal democracy.
      - ndriscoll 3mo ago
        I'm mostly speaking to the students, but certainly there are faculty that would apply to as well. If we're talking about some intangible benefit to society for having lots of educated people, I would interpret that as being in service to civic contributions, so yes I would expect that means a liberal arts education should teach Western canon, and certainly it should not undermine it. If not in service to economic utility or propagating our values and traditions, then why exactly would we support a large portion of the population to do nothing but pursue hobby study in something no one else wants for years? Actually it's not even clear that the students even want to do that study either, given the apparent mass cheating or AI usage. So who is it for?

by quacked 3mo ago

ndriscoll 3mo ago

To that point, how many university educated American adults have actually read, say, Locke? It's been freely and easily accessible for decades, e.g.: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/7370 https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/7370 How many university (liberal arts even) educated Americans have read the Federalist Papers? The Declaration of Independence? The Constitution?

WillAdams 3mo ago
Those texts were a standard part of grade school social studies when I was young, and my children read all in the course of a typical public education long before graduating.
- ndriscoll 3mo ago
  They might be part of the curriculum, but apparently ~half the country doesn't know what we just celebrated[0], so I somehow doubt they actually did their reading. It's pretty easy to pass or even do well in classes without really engaging with the material at all, even at the university level. Like I got an A in a philosophy course by just reading the professor's notes on exam morning and spitting them back out on an essay. I've still never gone back and actually read Grotius. [0] https://www.npr.org/2026/07/03/nx-s1-5881451/cato-institute-250th-july-4th-constitution-declaration-of-independence-poll https://www.npr.org/2026/07/03/nx-s1-5881451/cato-institute-...
  - WillAdams 3mo ago
    By definition, half of the population is of below average intelligence. As my daughter said to her boyfriend in college, "Welcome to the upper half of the bell curve."
    - ndriscoll 3mo ago
      Right but that's just it: it's barely the upper half (over 40% of young people now get a degree apparently[0]), and the age breakdown indicates that 40% is also apparently the proportion of 18-29s that know we declared independence 250 years ago. So assuming continuity and rough correspondence of the two distributions, that's approximately the level of knowledge at the threshold of degree holders now. Actually the census data says ~43% get a degree and the article says 39% of 18-29s know what we celebrated, so presumably at least 4% (~9% of degree holders) are able to get a degree and don't know. If this is our bottom end, I get the sense that even above-average students (even of liberal arts) aren't reading Montesquieu or whatever image people try to evoke about highly educated societies. [0] https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2025/educational-attainment-data.html https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2025/educatio...
aleph_minus_one 3mo ago
> How many university (liberal arts even) educated Americans have read the Federalist Papers? The Declaration of Independence? The Constitution? To give a counterpoint: C. P. Snow. The Two Cultures and the Scientific Revolution. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Two_Cultures https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Two_Cultures (overview) > https://web.archive.org/web/20170508085255/https://www.rbkc.gov.uk/pdf/Rede-lecture-2-cultures.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20170508085255/https://www.rbkc....
- ndriscoll 3mo ago
  I don't think that's really a counterpoint. My point was that I get the impression that even those in the humanities seem to be losing familiarity with liberal ideas. So it's even worse now (or we've just lied to ourselves as we pretend to expand access to higher education).
  - UncleMeat 3mo ago
    Where do you get this impression from? Faculty? Published research? My observation is that people working in the humanities have a deeper and wider reading list than at any point in prior history. If you are complaining about students then I don't see what the problem is with not having read these particular texts. The humanities is so incredibly wide and it is good that we have widened curricula to not just focus everybody down a particular reading list of western intellectual tradition. A humanities education isn't there to just pump out classical liberals. A polisci major who studies ancient chinese politics or 21st century dictatorships is just as legitimate as somebody who studies Locke and western liberal democracy.
    - ndriscoll 3mo ago
      I'm mostly speaking to the students, but certainly there are faculty that would apply to as well. If we're talking about some intangible benefit to society for having lots of educated people, I would interpret that as being in service to civic contributions, so yes I would expect that means a liberal arts education should teach Western canon, and certainly it should not undermine it. If not in service to economic utility or propagating our values and traditions, then why exactly would we support a large portion of the population to do nothing but pursue hobby study in something no one else wants for years? Actually it's not even clear that the students even want to do that study either, given the apparent mass cheating or AI usage. So who is it for?