8 ms·

The Code Of Conduct

47 points by craigkerstiens 14y ago

fleitz 14y ago
Codes of Conduct are always good, zero-tolerance polices on the other hand are usually a bit extreme. What starts out as well intentioned zero-tolerance policy usually ends up in absurdity. Like zero-tolerance policies in schools that started as banning weapons and now prevent students from bringing meals that need to be eaten with knife and fork. Hopefully they are able to keep the zero-tolerance policy to mean what everyone thinks it means now.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- jnoller 14y ago
  I've got two kids in school. I know the pain of the inane zero tolerance policies such as those. However, harassment in any form, when corroborated, is just unacceptable.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - eikenberry 14y ago
    > "harassment in any form" This is the crux of the main problem with zero tolerance stances. That "in any form" gets interpreted in the widest possible way possible beyond the point of absurdity. This is because it is an absolute stance in a realm which is inherently subjective and relative to the various points of view involved. > "when corroborated" I think this helps with this a bit, as it requires at least one (hopefully more) other subjective view on whether it was harassment or not. Hopefully it will be enough.
- unalone 14y ago
  Codes of Conduct, I think, are good for some things, like actual conduct, and bad for other things, like assuaging people's irrational fears of possible violence. Which is what school policies are, basically.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
  - throwit1979 14y ago
    The issue with the LCA thread is that in modern socialization, being rationally thoughtful is unacceptable if the discussion is taken to be "insensitive". Geeks often don't understand that trying to arrive at the truth on certain topics is fraught with the risk of social suicide.
    - unalone 14y ago
      Because the poster above you deleted his comment, can you explain what the LCA thread is, and what was so problematic about it? I'm curious what the discussion was here.
      - throwit1979 14y ago
        The GP suggested that any conference with standards adjudicated by Valerie Auroura(1) would not be a conference worth going to, as it would involve a nonzero risk of being the victim of a witch hunt. [1] c.f. http://adainitiative.org/2012/10/open-source-software-open-to-all/ http://adainitiative.org/2012/10/open-source-software-open-t...
        unalone 14y ago
        Interesting! This is a less cut-and-dry debate than the one that's been going on throughout the rest of the thread. At the very least, Ts'o's comment was voiced in an inappropriate forum and I'd expect him to at least acknowledge he was wrong. I'd feel uncomfortable asking him to speak at a conference myself, if I was the conference-organizing sort. The "insensitive"/"social suicide" thing is tricky. Thing is, there are places and contexts for those discussions to take place, and simply bringing them up because you have an opinion on them that you'd like to voice isn't exactly appropriate. In some ways, it can be a very offensive behavior: the term "mansplaining", which I'm sure is controversial around these parts, is useful to describe how some men think their opinion on things (like rape) ought to be important and listened-to, simply because, well, their opinion deserves to be respected! And in some cases they'll voice this opinion, however half-heartedly thought out, to people who have given this topic much more consideration and who are considerably more well-versed in both the statistics and the opinions that revolve around the subject.
tomjen3 14y ago
I wonder if this kind of thing would stand up in court? Is it even legal to expulse people with no refund when the guidelines are vague? Personally I don't go to conferences for the same reasons I don't go to concerts -- too expensive when video is much better -- but I would be pissed if they threw me out for not measuring up to the arbitrary standards of some random enforcer of political correctness or for (horror) talking to girls in an elevator.
- briancurtin 14y ago
  > I would be pissed if they threw me out ...<snip>... for (horror) talking to girls in an elevator. I would be pissed if that happened to me too. Good thing that's not even remotely close to what any of this is even about.
  - tomjen3 14y ago
    Never heard of elevator gate? Seriously, guide lines used to be a good idea but they can only work when everybody agrees (or there is some written record) of what exactly sexual harrasment is. And 'unwanted' sexual advances? How the hell can you know if the girl wants to talk to you, without talking to her? Heck if I was a girl who got asked out 50 times a day for coffee it would properly be annoying too -- does that make it harressment? I mean, sure you treaten somebody that is one thing, but only because we have a pretty good societal standard for what is treatening -- yelling at people is, being black in an elevator is not.
    - briancurtin 14y ago
      > Never heard of elevator gate? No, but I'm not sure what its relevance is to this code of conduct and your wild hyperbole. > And 'unwanted' sexual advances? How the hell can you know if the girl wants to talk to you, without talking to her? Start with general conversation? "Hi, how are you?" when asked face-to-face is probably a good first step towards figuring out if your later sexual advances will be wanted.
      - 14y ago
smoyer 14y ago
"D stands for Diversity" It's a shame that has to even be stated ... the articles we've been seeing are related to technical events. How about we attempt to show each other a modicum of respect and argue the technical points without getting personal? And what place is there for harassment in polite society? My gramma often noted that it doesn't cost you anything to be polite or friendly.
steveklabnik 14y ago
Thank you for this, Jesse, if you're reading. Python people embarrass us Rubyists yet again. ;)
- jnoller 14y ago
  Ha. You're welcome.
  - sophacles 14y ago
    Seriously Kudos. It makes me sad that you had to put that much effort into an explanation of something this straight forward, but the result is a very nice, well-reasoned argument that is hard to argue with.
jfc 14y ago
I'm glad to see this Code of Conduct. Seems to me that most men are unaware of what women endure in terms of harassment, both from people they know and from strangers. Putting everyone on notice that such behavior won't be tolerated is a big step in the right direction.

Codes of Conduct are always good, zero-tolerance polices on the other hand are usually a bit extreme. What starts out as well intentioned zero-tolerance policy usually ends up in absurdity. Like zero-tolerance policies in schools that started as banning weapons and now prevent students from bringing meals that need to be eaten with knife and fork. Hopefully they are able to keep the zero-tolerance policy to mean what everyone thinks it means now.

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
jnoller 14y ago
I've got two kids in school. I know the pain of the inane zero tolerance policies such as those. However, harassment in any form, when corroborated, is just unacceptable.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- eikenberry 14y ago
  > "harassment in any form" This is the crux of the main problem with zero tolerance stances. That "in any form" gets interpreted in the widest possible way possible beyond the point of absurdity. This is because it is an absolute stance in a realm which is inherently subjective and relative to the various points of view involved. > "when corroborated" I think this helps with this a bit, as it requires at least one (hopefully more) other subjective view on whether it was harassment or not. Hopefully it will be enough.
unalone 14y ago
Codes of Conduct, I think, are good for some things, like actual conduct, and bad for other things, like assuaging people's irrational fears of possible violence. Which is what school policies are, basically.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
- throwit1979 14y ago
  The issue with the LCA thread is that in modern socialization, being rationally thoughtful is unacceptable if the discussion is taken to be "insensitive". Geeks often don't understand that trying to arrive at the truth on certain topics is fraught with the risk of social suicide.
  - unalone 14y ago
    Because the poster above you deleted his comment, can you explain what the LCA thread is, and what was so problematic about it? I'm curious what the discussion was here.
    - throwit1979 14y ago
      The GP suggested that any conference with standards adjudicated by Valerie Auroura(1) would not be a conference worth going to, as it would involve a nonzero risk of being the victim of a witch hunt. [1] c.f. http://adainitiative.org/2012/10/open-source-software-open-to-all/ http://adainitiative.org/2012/10/open-source-software-open-t...
      - unalone 14y ago
        Interesting! This is a less cut-and-dry debate than the one that's been going on throughout the rest of the thread. At the very least, Ts'o's comment was voiced in an inappropriate forum and I'd expect him to at least acknowledge he was wrong. I'd feel uncomfortable asking him to speak at a conference myself, if I was the conference-organizing sort. The "insensitive"/"social suicide" thing is tricky. Thing is, there are places and contexts for those discussions to take place, and simply bringing them up because you have an opinion on them that you'd like to voice isn't exactly appropriate. In some ways, it can be a very offensive behavior: the term "mansplaining", which I'm sure is controversial around these parts, is useful to describe how some men think their opinion on things (like rape) ought to be important and listened-to, simply because, well, their opinion deserves to be respected! And in some cases they'll voice this opinion, however half-heartedly thought out, to people who have given this topic much more consideration and who are considerably more well-versed in both the statistics and the opinions that revolve around the subject.

tomjen3 14y ago

I wonder if this kind of thing would stand up in court? Is it even legal to expulse people with no refund when the guidelines are vague? Personally I don't go to conferences for the same reasons I don't go to concerts -- too expensive when video is much better -- but I would be pissed if they threw me out for not measuring up to the arbitrary standards of some random enforcer of political correctness or for (horror) talking to girls in an elevator.

briancurtin 14y ago
> I would be pissed if they threw me out ...<snip>... for (horror) talking to girls in an elevator. I would be pissed if that happened to me too. Good thing that's not even remotely close to what any of this is even about.
- tomjen3 14y ago
  Never heard of elevator gate? Seriously, guide lines used to be a good idea but they can only work when everybody agrees (or there is some written record) of what exactly sexual harrasment is. And 'unwanted' sexual advances? How the hell can you know if the girl wants to talk to you, without talking to her? Heck if I was a girl who got asked out 50 times a day for coffee it would properly be annoying too -- does that make it harressment? I mean, sure you treaten somebody that is one thing, but only because we have a pretty good societal standard for what is treatening -- yelling at people is, being black in an elevator is not.
  - briancurtin 14y ago
    > Never heard of elevator gate? No, but I'm not sure what its relevance is to this code of conduct and your wild hyperbole. > And 'unwanted' sexual advances? How the hell can you know if the girl wants to talk to you, without talking to her? Start with general conversation? "Hi, how are you?" when asked face-to-face is probably a good first step towards figuring out if your later sexual advances will be wanted.
    - 14y ago

smoyer 14y ago

"D stands for Diversity" It's a shame that has to even be stated ... the articles we've been seeing are related to technical events. How about we attempt to show each other a modicum of respect and argue the technical points without getting personal? And what place is there for harassment in polite society? My gramma often noted that it doesn't cost you anything to be polite or friendly.

steveklabnik 14y ago

Thank you for this, Jesse, if you're reading. Python people embarrass us Rubyists yet again. ;)

jnoller 14y ago
Ha. You're welcome.
- sophacles 14y ago
  Seriously Kudos. It makes me sad that you had to put that much effort into an explanation of something this straight forward, but the result is a very nice, well-reasoned argument that is hard to argue with.

jfc 14y ago

I'm glad to see this Code of Conduct. Seems to me that most men are unaware of what women endure in terms of harassment, both from people they know and from strangers. Putting everyone on notice that such behavior won't be tolerated is a big step in the right direction.