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This isn't banning such programs. The question is why the federal government needs to support them. If you want to set up a teaching program to learn something

by BeetleB 3mo ago

This isn't banning such programs. The question is why the federal government needs to support them. If you want to set up a teaching program to learn something arcane, by all means go for it and charge a fair/reasonable/whatever amount. Just because you're teaching it doesn't mean the Federal government should give you money. Let those who can afford it pay for it. If not many can, you need to make an argument why your program should be subsidized (and by who)? It shouldn't be a default that the support will come from the Federal government. From the article: > Specifically, certificate programs in cosmetology and somatic body work have the highest predicted failure rates. Do you really want to make the case that the Federal government should fund these? For more common arts/music programs, the Federal government can fund arts/music initiatives (not tied to education).

mistercheph 3mo ago
Education is not something arcane, TBH it's really the vocational schools that should be forced to call themselves something different. 99% of university students are not there for an education, they are in welding school upper-middle-class edition. Vocational programs are essential infrastructure, but they are not education, and those programs should not receive funds allocated for education or be held to the same standards as education programs and vice versa. E.g. most computer science departments where computer science is not taught, students just participate in a charade of memorizing arbitrary facts that they never even attempt to understand in order to get a certificate that entitles them to receive on-the-job training to glue javascript components together for 6 figures. Job training != education
- yorwba 3mo ago
  What about job training disqualifies it from being education?
  - snerbles 3mo ago
    Because it's not elitist ivory tower navel gazing with possible 8th order effects or something.
    - mistercheph 3mo ago
      Exactly: Elitist ivory tower as in free education for all that want it. 8th order effects like a well functioning society that isn't on the verge of collapse, where people live well, love each other, and think about interesting, important problems. Distinct from the 1st order effects of a really high GDP thanks to all of the code monkeys we've trained to glue react components together: which has netted us a society on the verge of collapse, where poverty abounds, crime is universal, basic infrastructure like roads and water are crumbling, and we are plagued by mental illnesses, suicide, drug addiction, and mass shootings. Hmm, if only there were any analogues in history that could show us the way forward, anyways, I've got to run, I've got a meeting in five with my agent who's going to show me how to 100x my SAAS revenue.
      - snerbles 3mo ago
        So you're laundering academic class contempt into a theory of liberation.
  - mistercheph 3mo ago
    Briefly: education is concerned with thinking, vocational training is concerned with task performance. There are lots of synergies and gray areas between the two, e.g. certain kinds of task proficiency are really helpful tools while thinking (e.g. arithmetic), and thinking is a really helpful tool while task performing (e.g. an unseen permutation of a task) That question probably deserves a much longer, more complete answer than this, but another poor imprecise framework is that education empowers people to tackle new problems poorly and taking lots of time, vocational training empowers people to tackle existing problems with known solutions excellently. In the language of the greeks, nous and techne.
theahura 3mo ago
> Do you really want to make the case that the Federal government should fund these? No, but I don't think means testing is a better alternative. You and I both know that this is a wedge to punish perceived political enemies, as much as you know that the total number of people who graduate with a degree in "somatic body work" is such a small fraction of people as to be negligible > Nationally, about 10,600 to 10,700 students graduate annually with a degree or certificate in the broader category of Somatic Bodywork & Therapeutic Services. The vast majority (over 10,500) specialize in Massage Therapy, while purely focused Somatic Bodywork programs see much smaller cohorts, averaging roughly 40 to 50 graduates per year across all US institutions. (From Gemini) This is kinda like saying we should get rid of encryption because a few people may use it for bad things, or that we should require identification before anyone can get on the Internet because some people may be hurt by it
- eudamoniac 3mo ago
  If it's such a negligible amount of people then what is the issue with denying them student loans? Very few people will be affected by this, so you say; not worth arguing about then I suppose.
  - ryandrake 3mo ago
    If it's such a negligible amount of people then what is the issue with funding them?
    - eudamoniac 3mo ago
      Status quo fallacy
atomicthumbs 3mo ago
so poor people don't get to do to school?

by BeetleB 3mo ago

mistercheph 3mo ago

Education is not something arcane, TBH it's really the vocational schools that should be forced to call themselves something different. 99% of university students are not there for an education, they are in welding school upper-middle-class edition. Vocational programs are essential infrastructure, but they are not education, and those programs should not receive funds allocated for education or be held to the same standards as education programs and vice versa. E.g. most computer science departments where computer science is not taught, students just participate in a charade of memorizing arbitrary facts that they never even attempt to understand in order to get a certificate that entitles them to receive on-the-job training to glue javascript components together for 6 figures. Job training != education

yorwba 3mo ago
What about job training disqualifies it from being education?
- snerbles 3mo ago
  Because it's not elitist ivory tower navel gazing with possible 8th order effects or something.
  - mistercheph 3mo ago
    Exactly: Elitist ivory tower as in free education for all that want it. 8th order effects like a well functioning society that isn't on the verge of collapse, where people live well, love each other, and think about interesting, important problems. Distinct from the 1st order effects of a really high GDP thanks to all of the code monkeys we've trained to glue react components together: which has netted us a society on the verge of collapse, where poverty abounds, crime is universal, basic infrastructure like roads and water are crumbling, and we are plagued by mental illnesses, suicide, drug addiction, and mass shootings. Hmm, if only there were any analogues in history that could show us the way forward, anyways, I've got to run, I've got a meeting in five with my agent who's going to show me how to 100x my SAAS revenue.
    - snerbles 3mo ago
      So you're laundering academic class contempt into a theory of liberation.
- mistercheph 3mo ago
  Briefly: education is concerned with thinking, vocational training is concerned with task performance. There are lots of synergies and gray areas between the two, e.g. certain kinds of task proficiency are really helpful tools while thinking (e.g. arithmetic), and thinking is a really helpful tool while task performing (e.g. an unseen permutation of a task) That question probably deserves a much longer, more complete answer than this, but another poor imprecise framework is that education empowers people to tackle new problems poorly and taking lots of time, vocational training empowers people to tackle existing problems with known solutions excellently. In the language of the greeks, nous and techne.

theahura 3mo ago

> Do you really want to make the case that the Federal government should fund these? No, but I don't think means testing is a better alternative. You and I both know that this is a wedge to punish perceived political enemies, as much as you know that the total number of people who graduate with a degree in "somatic body work" is such a small fraction of people as to be negligible > Nationally, about 10,600 to 10,700 students graduate annually with a degree or certificate in the broader category of Somatic Bodywork & Therapeutic Services. The vast majority (over 10,500) specialize in Massage Therapy, while purely focused Somatic Bodywork programs see much smaller cohorts, averaging roughly 40 to 50 graduates per year across all US institutions. (From Gemini) This is kinda like saying we should get rid of encryption because a few people may use it for bad things, or that we should require identification before anyone can get on the Internet because some people may be hurt by it

eudamoniac 3mo ago
If it's such a negligible amount of people then what is the issue with denying them student loans? Very few people will be affected by this, so you say; not worth arguing about then I suppose.
- ryandrake 3mo ago
  If it's such a negligible amount of people then what is the issue with funding them?
  - eudamoniac 3mo ago
    Status quo fallacy

atomicthumbs 3mo ago

so poor people don't get to do to school?