3 ms·

Also unclear how it works for the PhD pipeline. If you roll straight from bachelor's to a doctorate program - you have abysmal earnings for the next 5-6 years o

Also unclear how it works for the PhD pipeline. If you roll straight from bachelor's to a doctorate program - you have abysmal earnings for the next 5-6 years of your life.

bruce511 3mo ago
Indeed. Equally the person who has 4 Years experience in the workplace probably does better than a first year grad. In other words, when trying to measure value outcomes, what time period should one consider? And does the rule apply at the college level or the program level? If I churn out 100 people in my law school, can I average their prospects with 50 from my Archaeology degree? Or with 50 from my "music in movies" degree?
dataflow 3mo ago
Unless a program has a habit of sending the majority of its undergrads into PhDs, that part might not be so hard to resolve -- just exclude everyone who does that from the measurement sample.
- bruce511 3mo ago
  Who decides who should be included or excluded from the statistics? The govt? In this era of open hostility to institutions that won't toe the line? Who are looking for ways to punish what they don't like? Or perhaps the college? If they decide then can they pick and choose who goes into what statistic? Does a drop-out (like say Bill Gates) get included or excluded? Do we even accept the premise, that education's sole goal is higher salaries? This whole rule is performative. It merely gives power to the powerful to exercise in whatever way they like.
  - 3eb7988a1663 3mo ago
    We took a random subset of the football team who graduated and went pro. College is looking like a fantastic investment!
WalterBright 3mo ago
You're right that getting a PhD comes with a vow of poverty. Unless your doctorate is in AI.
clcaev 3mo ago
PhD programs are generally not funded with loans. Professional schools are.
- 3eb7988a1663 3mo ago
  The question at hand is about undergraduate. The student's pre-PhD education likely did have loans. If you go straight from bachelors + loans to a multi-year PhD program, the student appears completely destitute in the stats. Even if they are making long-term investments in their/societies future.

Also unclear how it works for the PhD pipeline. If you roll straight from bachelor's to a doctorate program - you have abysmal earnings for the next 5-6 years of your life.

bruce511 3mo ago

Indeed. Equally the person who has 4 Years experience in the workplace probably does better than a first year grad. In other words, when trying to measure value outcomes, what time period should one consider? And does the rule apply at the college level or the program level? If I churn out 100 people in my law school, can I average their prospects with 50 from my Archaeology degree? Or with 50 from my "music in movies" degree?

dataflow 3mo ago

Unless a program has a habit of sending the majority of its undergrads into PhDs, that part might not be so hard to resolve -- just exclude everyone who does that from the measurement sample.

bruce511 3mo ago
Who decides who should be included or excluded from the statistics? The govt? In this era of open hostility to institutions that won't toe the line? Who are looking for ways to punish what they don't like? Or perhaps the college? If they decide then can they pick and choose who goes into what statistic? Does a drop-out (like say Bill Gates) get included or excluded? Do we even accept the premise, that education's sole goal is higher salaries? This whole rule is performative. It merely gives power to the powerful to exercise in whatever way they like.
- 3eb7988a1663 3mo ago
  We took a random subset of the football team who graduated and went pro. College is looking like a fantastic investment!

WalterBright 3mo ago

You're right that getting a PhD comes with a vow of poverty. Unless your doctorate is in AI.

clcaev 3mo ago

PhD programs are generally not funded with loans. Professional schools are.

3eb7988a1663 3mo ago
The question at hand is about undergraduate. The student's pre-PhD education likely did have loans. If you go straight from bachelors + loans to a multi-year PhD program, the student appears completely destitute in the stats. Even if they are making long-term investments in their/societies future.