4 ms·

imo this is pants on head backwards. The whole problem with the current university system is that it has become exclusively a credentialing system that everyone

imo this is pants on head backwards. The whole problem with the current university system is that it has become exclusively a credentialing system that everyone uses to justify higher salaries. We’ve completely left the education part of it by the wayside…except for the liberal arts majors who are actually there just to learn! This rule is just encoding the existing tulip mania into federal law directly, by making it clear that the ONLY reason one goes to school is for future $$$

fc417fc802 3mo ago
Still it would seem to make some amount of sense for federal aid to be restricted to economically advantageous persuits, no? Doesn't mean that's the only thing institutions can offer nor do I necessarily think it's the best way to improve the status quo.
- usrnm 3mo ago
  On the contrary, who else is going to fund fundamental research that is not immediately useful? Stuff that prints money will have no problem finding funding, looking at the greater picture is exactly what the government is supposed to do
  - fc417fc802 3mo ago
    We aren't talking about fundamental research here (NIH, NSF, et al) we're talking primarily about students pursuing bachelor's. At least IIUC.
    - usrnm 3mo ago
      You need a steady supply of new grads to keep the research going. How many exactly is a different question, of course
      - sgerenser 3mo ago
        How much of these new grad researchers have undergrad degrees in music vs. science or math? I’d suspect there’s very few of the former, and even then they got the position despite their music degree not because of it.
        usrnm 3mo ago
        Do you only consider fundamental research in maths or sciences worth pursuing? Do you even realise how much of your everyday life depends on the results of fundamental research in philosophy and humanities?
        fc417fc802 3mo ago
        > Do you even realise how much of your everyday life depends on the results of fundamental research in philosophy and humanities? Approximately zero? Could you articulate what exactly you have in mind here? A liberal arts degree is certainly beneficial to the individual's broader understanding of the world, and I certainly would prefer my elected representatives to have a thorough grasp of history and philosophy, but where is the fundamental research that my everyday life depends on?
        usrnm 3mo ago
        Human rights? Personal freedom? The entire structure of society? The economy? The political system? Laws? Modern views on morality? Even science itself was created by philosophy, what is knowledge and how to get it is a philosophical question, not a scientific one. Every time you interact with other human beings you're doing through the lens of what philosophy and humanities achieved in the last millenia
    - cudgy 3mo ago
      People that do fundamental research typically require a bachelor degree.
      - fc417fc802 3mo ago
        ... in an economically advantageous subject I would expect.
- pocksuppet 3mo ago
  If it's economically advantageous shouldn't the private sector be able to fund it for a profit already?
  - fc417fc802 3mo ago
    The same private sector that's famous for not wanting to hire juniors even though the seniors obviously need to come from somewhere? People are allowed to move between employers at will despite any investment in their education. Economically advantageous to the individual and to the employer are separate things.
  - labcomputer 3mo ago
    It is (already). Private sector employees pay off their loans from the money paid by their private sector employers.
    - pocksuppet 3mo ago
      Why does the government have to provide the loans?
userbinator 3mo ago
No, it's making it clear that government aid, i.e. taxpayer money, should not be paying for education that won't result in the population, and in turn the government, earning more. liberal arts majors who are actually there just to learn s/learn/be indoctrinated/
- knome 3mo ago
  >s/learn/be indoctrinated/ Yeah, this comment demonstrates my own perspective on it quite well, in that it's likely just another bald political attack by the current administration on education, wherein a bureaucrat will get to decide what does and does not constitute a worthwhile degree, and is allowed to become the gatekeeper of what universities may teach by selective topic by topic defunding. Will they decide to ignore the salaries of students "not working in their field"? That could be used as an instant bludgeon against anything centered on history, philosophy, or other educational paths that do not generally have high paying careers associated with them, even if those graduating from them do generally earn more on average than those with only a high school diploma. Twenty years ago something like half of those in tech didn't have a college degree of any kind. Plenty of businesses are run by folks that don't have college degrees. Crafting statistics through careful manipulation of who is counted for making the comparisons could be used to exclude almost any set of courses that isn't STEM, law or medicine.
WalterBright 3mo ago
> liberal arts majors who are actually there just to learn I didn't go to college to get an engineering degree. I am a born engineer and I wanted very much to learn the craft. My diploma sits in the basement somewhere. I never put it on the wall.
BeetleB 3mo ago
This isn't banning such programs. The question is why the federal government needs to support them. If you want to set up a teaching program to learn something arcane, by all means go for it and charge a fair/reasonable/whatever amount. Just because you're teaching it doesn't mean the Federal government should give you money. Let those who can afford it pay for it. If not many can, you need to make an argument why your program should be subsidized (and by who)? It shouldn't be a default that the support will come from the Federal government. From the article: > Specifically, certificate programs in cosmetology and somatic body work have the highest predicted failure rates. Do you really want to make the case that the Federal government should fund these? For more common arts/music programs, the Federal government can fund arts/music initiatives (not tied to education).
- mistercheph 3mo ago
  Education is not something arcane, TBH it's really the vocational schools that should be forced to call themselves something different. 99% of university students are not there for an education, they are in welding school upper-middle-class edition. Vocational programs are essential infrastructure, but they are not education, and those programs should not receive funds allocated for education or be held to the same standards as education programs and vice versa. E.g. most computer science departments where computer science is not taught, students just participate in a charade of memorizing arbitrary facts that they never even attempt to understand in order to get a certificate that entitles them to receive on-the-job training to glue javascript components together for 6 figures. Job training != education
  - yorwba 3mo ago
    What about job training disqualifies it from being education?
    - snerbles 3mo ago
      Because it's not elitist ivory tower navel gazing with possible 8th order effects or something.

fc417fc802 3mo ago

Still it would seem to make some amount of sense for federal aid to be restricted to economically advantageous persuits, no? Doesn't mean that's the only thing institutions can offer nor do I necessarily think it's the best way to improve the status quo.

usrnm 3mo ago
On the contrary, who else is going to fund fundamental research that is not immediately useful? Stuff that prints money will have no problem finding funding, looking at the greater picture is exactly what the government is supposed to do
- fc417fc802 3mo ago
  We aren't talking about fundamental research here (NIH, NSF, et al) we're talking primarily about students pursuing bachelor's. At least IIUC.
  - usrnm 3mo ago
    You need a steady supply of new grads to keep the research going. How many exactly is a different question, of course
    - sgerenser 3mo ago
      How much of these new grad researchers have undergrad degrees in music vs. science or math? I’d suspect there’s very few of the former, and even then they got the position despite their music degree not because of it.
      - usrnm 3mo ago
        Do you only consider fundamental research in maths or sciences worth pursuing? Do you even realise how much of your everyday life depends on the results of fundamental research in philosophy and humanities?
        fc417fc802 3mo ago
        > Do you even realise how much of your everyday life depends on the results of fundamental research in philosophy and humanities? Approximately zero? Could you articulate what exactly you have in mind here? A liberal arts degree is certainly beneficial to the individual's broader understanding of the world, and I certainly would prefer my elected representatives to have a thorough grasp of history and philosophy, but where is the fundamental research that my everyday life depends on?
        usrnm 3mo ago
        Human rights? Personal freedom? The entire structure of society? The economy? The political system? Laws? Modern views on morality? Even science itself was created by philosophy, what is knowledge and how to get it is a philosophical question, not a scientific one. Every time you interact with other human beings you're doing through the lens of what philosophy and humanities achieved in the last millenia
  - cudgy 3mo ago
    People that do fundamental research typically require a bachelor degree.
    - fc417fc802 3mo ago
      ... in an economically advantageous subject I would expect.
pocksuppet 3mo ago
If it's economically advantageous shouldn't the private sector be able to fund it for a profit already?
- fc417fc802 3mo ago
  The same private sector that's famous for not wanting to hire juniors even though the seniors obviously need to come from somewhere? People are allowed to move between employers at will despite any investment in their education. Economically advantageous to the individual and to the employer are separate things.
- labcomputer 3mo ago
  It is (already). Private sector employees pay off their loans from the money paid by their private sector employers.
  - pocksuppet 3mo ago
    Why does the government have to provide the loans?

userbinator 3mo ago

No, it's making it clear that government aid, i.e. taxpayer money, should not be paying for education that won't result in the population, and in turn the government, earning more. liberal arts majors who are actually there just to learn s/learn/be indoctrinated/

knome 3mo ago
>s/learn/be indoctrinated/ Yeah, this comment demonstrates my own perspective on it quite well, in that it's likely just another bald political attack by the current administration on education, wherein a bureaucrat will get to decide what does and does not constitute a worthwhile degree, and is allowed to become the gatekeeper of what universities may teach by selective topic by topic defunding. Will they decide to ignore the salaries of students "not working in their field"? That could be used as an instant bludgeon against anything centered on history, philosophy, or other educational paths that do not generally have high paying careers associated with them, even if those graduating from them do generally earn more on average than those with only a high school diploma. Twenty years ago something like half of those in tech didn't have a college degree of any kind. Plenty of businesses are run by folks that don't have college degrees. Crafting statistics through careful manipulation of who is counted for making the comparisons could be used to exclude almost any set of courses that isn't STEM, law or medicine.

WalterBright 3mo ago

> liberal arts majors who are actually there just to learn I didn't go to college to get an engineering degree. I am a born engineer and I wanted very much to learn the craft. My diploma sits in the basement somewhere. I never put it on the wall.

BeetleB 3mo ago

This isn't banning such programs. The question is why the federal government needs to support them. If you want to set up a teaching program to learn something arcane, by all means go for it and charge a fair/reasonable/whatever amount. Just because you're teaching it doesn't mean the Federal government should give you money. Let those who can afford it pay for it. If not many can, you need to make an argument why your program should be subsidized (and by who)? It shouldn't be a default that the support will come from the Federal government. From the article: > Specifically, certificate programs in cosmetology and somatic body work have the highest predicted failure rates. Do you really want to make the case that the Federal government should fund these? For more common arts/music programs, the Federal government can fund arts/music initiatives (not tied to education).

mistercheph 3mo ago
Education is not something arcane, TBH it's really the vocational schools that should be forced to call themselves something different. 99% of university students are not there for an education, they are in welding school upper-middle-class edition. Vocational programs are essential infrastructure, but they are not education, and those programs should not receive funds allocated for education or be held to the same standards as education programs and vice versa. E.g. most computer science departments where computer science is not taught, students just participate in a charade of memorizing arbitrary facts that they never even attempt to understand in order to get a certificate that entitles them to receive on-the-job training to glue javascript components together for 6 figures. Job training != education
- yorwba 3mo ago
  What about job training disqualifies it from being education?
  - snerbles 3mo ago
    Because it's not elitist ivory tower navel gazing with possible 8th order effects or something.