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What does this have to do with credit cards? India always had credit cards at a scale comparable to most countries, and they always were a regularly-used of pay

What does this have to do with credit cards? India always had credit cards at a scale comparable to most countries, and they always were a regularly-used of payment for medium-sized "white" transactions; they just weren't that useful for day-to-day transactions in terms of most locals' ways of working where the actual India-level scale is, and not the primary way of transacting as in the US. And looking at how Visa and Mastercard work, and what they tried to do in Brazil, I think that's a great thing. As GP says, you could _never_ get the older generation to use a credit card even when they had the means to do so. But they took to UPI just fine, and many now prefer it over cash. Also, credit card issuance and acceptance in India is growing quite a bit right now, despite (because?) of UPI.

nafey 3mo ago
Most mom and pop stores (Kirana stores) in India cannot get a PoS device easily. UPI solves this problem by being much easier for merchants to onboard and start accepting payments with just a QR code instead of a PoS device.
- mayama 3mo ago
  Not just about PoS device. During early credit/debit card days, lot of stores would pass on merchandise fees directly to customers, giving discount in case of cash transactions, some stores still charge extra. This is not allowed in west as credit cards require same price as cash transactions, and most users perceive credit card rewards as something positive as one would lose out on this rewards when using cash. In India perception is that one would be making loss* if using credit cards. UPI with no fees as of now, is perceived as equal to cash by most people not dealing with black money.
  - deleted 3mo ago
    [deleted]
  - lxgr 3mo ago
    > This is not allowed in west as credit cards require same price as cash transactions Network rules disallowing customer surcharges have actually become prohibited by law in quite a few places.
    - StrangeClone 3mo ago
      Discounts coupons are legally allowed based on payment method type. Seller often provide discount coupons when you use UPI payment method.
altmanaltman 3mo ago
It has everything to do with credit cards if you understand what the parent comment is saying. Credit card allowed people to use something else other than cash when internet banking/digital payments wasn't available and smartphones were not a thing. Their entire society adopted credit cards as a very normal way of payment even for everyday stuff since it offers convinence over cash and rewards. Yes India got credit cards but it was not widespread and people did not use it as a daily thing since most stores/outlets did not have the card swiping system. UPI solved this problem very well since you just need a QR code and a valid bank account and no transaction charges making it perfect for day to day spending. We got digital payments and smartphones together. But in the US for example, credit cards came much earlier and were able to capitalize very well since there wasn't a lot of the technology at that time which we take for granted today.
- sometimes_all 3mo ago
  Well, yes, but you conflate that credit cards would've worked, had they been available/easy, in a place like India, which in many ways rejected and still sometimes rejects the kind of thinking which makes credit cards successful in places like the US, which is what the GP was saying. People up until one-two generations ago completely rejected the use case for credit cards for payment, since they just did not want to swallow the premise of using credit as a payment instrument. If that doesn't happen, credit cards do not take off (just as what you are saying). The problem wasn't as much as systems were not available; systems were available but people did not want it. Merchants swallow the cost if the demand comes (this is what is happening right now; credit cards are becoming mainstream despite UPI being there, because younger generation loves using them, and more merchants than before are allowing credit cards on UPI even though they can reject them, because people want to use credit on UPI as well). People at that time just did not want to use credit, so merchants had no incentive to bear costs. Kali Mody brought Diners Club to India in 1961 (my father has fond memories of that instrument). CBI introduced the first bank-issued credit card in the eighties. The system was _always_ there. People just didn't feel they wanted to use it. People also forget that UPI is not just for consumer-to-merchant. It's also a P2P system, which credit cards definitely aren't. You make a system that people want, people will use. People used UPI.
oasisbob 3mo ago
When people here are saying "credit cards" are we talking about purely domestic networks, or what? Visa and Mastercard payment rails are somewhat disjoint, even for large Indian companies. As a foreigner, there's always been a huge acceptance gap vs many other countries when you want to use a card.
dominotw 3mo ago
I think your comment is in bad faith. so i wont explain what i meant.

nafey 3mo ago

Most mom and pop stores (Kirana stores) in India cannot get a PoS device easily. UPI solves this problem by being much easier for merchants to onboard and start accepting payments with just a QR code instead of a PoS device.

mayama 3mo ago
Not just about PoS device. During early credit/debit card days, lot of stores would pass on merchandise fees directly to customers, giving discount in case of cash transactions, some stores still charge extra. This is not allowed in west as credit cards require same price as cash transactions, and most users perceive credit card rewards as something positive as one would lose out on this rewards when using cash. In India perception is that one would be making loss* if using credit cards. UPI with no fees as of now, is perceived as equal to cash by most people not dealing with black money.
- deleted 3mo ago
  [deleted]
- lxgr 3mo ago
  > This is not allowed in west as credit cards require same price as cash transactions Network rules disallowing customer surcharges have actually become prohibited by law in quite a few places.
  - StrangeClone 3mo ago
    Discounts coupons are legally allowed based on payment method type. Seller often provide discount coupons when you use UPI payment method.

altmanaltman 3mo ago

It has everything to do with credit cards if you understand what the parent comment is saying. Credit card allowed people to use something else other than cash when internet banking/digital payments wasn't available and smartphones were not a thing. Their entire society adopted credit cards as a very normal way of payment even for everyday stuff since it offers convinence over cash and rewards. Yes India got credit cards but it was not widespread and people did not use it as a daily thing since most stores/outlets did not have the card swiping system. UPI solved this problem very well since you just need a QR code and a valid bank account and no transaction charges making it perfect for day to day spending. We got digital payments and smartphones together. But in the US for example, credit cards came much earlier and were able to capitalize very well since there wasn't a lot of the technology at that time which we take for granted today.

sometimes_all 3mo ago
Well, yes, but you conflate that credit cards would've worked, had they been available/easy, in a place like India, which in many ways rejected and still sometimes rejects the kind of thinking which makes credit cards successful in places like the US, which is what the GP was saying. People up until one-two generations ago completely rejected the use case for credit cards for payment, since they just did not want to swallow the premise of using credit as a payment instrument. If that doesn't happen, credit cards do not take off (just as what you are saying). The problem wasn't as much as systems were not available; systems were available but people did not want it. Merchants swallow the cost if the demand comes (this is what is happening right now; credit cards are becoming mainstream despite UPI being there, because younger generation loves using them, and more merchants than before are allowing credit cards on UPI even though they can reject them, because people want to use credit on UPI as well). People at that time just did not want to use credit, so merchants had no incentive to bear costs. Kali Mody brought Diners Club to India in 1961 (my father has fond memories of that instrument). CBI introduced the first bank-issued credit card in the eighties. The system was _always_ there. People just didn't feel they wanted to use it. People also forget that UPI is not just for consumer-to-merchant. It's also a P2P system, which credit cards definitely aren't. You make a system that people want, people will use. People used UPI.

oasisbob 3mo ago

When people here are saying "credit cards" are we talking about purely domestic networks, or what? Visa and Mastercard payment rails are somewhat disjoint, even for large Indian companies. As a foreigner, there's always been a huge acceptance gap vs many other countries when you want to use a card.

dominotw 3mo ago

I think your comment is in bad faith. so i wont explain what i meant.