3 ms·

They actually called themselves Ῥωμαῖοι, not Romani, and not every description needs to be emic. There's nothing wrong with the label "Byzantine" except to Byza

by cwnyth 3mo ago

They actually called themselves Ῥωμαῖοι, not Romani, and not every description needs to be emic. There's nothing wrong with the label "Byzantine" except to Byzaboos.

derdi 3mo ago
So I shouldn't call them Romans, since that is an English translation of what they called themselves, and thus foreign to them. But you can call them Byzantines, an English term invented in the 19th century, because... you say so? Thank you, I have been enlightened.
- cwnyth 3mo ago
  Tell me, do you call people from China Chinese? Japan Japanese? Germany German? If so, you're a hypocrite. You're also arguing against a strawman. I never said they weren't Roman. I only said there's nothing wrong with Byzantine. Maybe if you weren't so smugly self-righteous, you'd have better reading comprehension.
- cwnyth 3mo ago
  Separately, your facts are wrong, because it was centuries before that the word Byzantine was first used to describe this era of the latter eastern Roman empire. Oops, might want to read a book instead of looking at memes.
vonunov 3mo ago
> Byzaboos Hey that's fresh. Do they have Hittitomori too?
- cwnyth 3mo ago
  I'd love to see that! I can't take credit for the term. There are some people who are extreme fans of the Byzantine empire and defend it at every turn. I can kind of get recent history, but being a fanatic about an ancient polity strikes this trained historian as utterly bizarre.
BalinKing 3mo ago
But Wikipedia[0] says Ῥωμαῖοι transliterates to Romaioi, i.e. "Romans". [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire#Nomenclature https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire#Nomenclature
- cwnyth 3mo ago
  You've missed the point.
- cwnyth 3mo ago
  Because I was too brief while at work before, let me be fuller now: if you were to go back a thousand years and ask about the national characteristic of the emperor of Constantinople, they'd look at you crazy because you spoke English. But your question is laden with several assumptions that are completely foreign to their minds. First, Byzantine is an adjective from Byzantium, the original name of Constantinople. First and foremost, when its used in Classical and Late Antique historiography, it's describing an empire, culture, polity, etc. that centers on Constantinople, rather than other cities of the empire. It is not an ethnic marker. The people at the time would have called themselves Greek, Romans, or Syrians. Second, whether "Romaioi" or "Hellenes" is preferred waxes and wanes depending on what's en vogue at the time. Contrary to the meme, the citizens of Athens did not uniformly call themselves "Romans" (Romaioi) from the 320s onward. Some were, some weren't. What language did they speak? What ethnos, genos were they of? What does Romaioi even really mean? That will yield better answers, but again, it differs based on fashion. Lastly, the very idea of a defined "empire" would be very confusing for the ancients. What is that word? It looks like imperium, but that means domain of rule. It's not limited to those at the helm, who might call themselves imperatores, but also Augusti. It's not like a kingdom encompassing other kingdoms. It's just a modern term given to an ancient reality, with no difference at all to names like Byzantine or even Roman. See e.g. Lintott on the problems of this terminology: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/greece-and-rome/article/abs/what-was-the-imperium-romanum/26C216A77B563E7A0E93BDEE5B8EEC1E https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/greece-and-rome/arti... This whole "debate" is a charade provided by people who once complained they had to take a humanities class and thereafter were clueless about what real modern historians and philologists were discussing about this period.

by cwnyth 3mo ago

They actually called themselves Ῥωμαῖοι, not Romani, and not every description needs to be emic. There's nothing wrong with the label "Byzantine" except to Byzaboos.

derdi 3mo ago

So I shouldn't call them Romans, since that is an English translation of what they called themselves, and thus foreign to them. But you can call them Byzantines, an English term invented in the 19th century, because... you say so? Thank you, I have been enlightened.

cwnyth 3mo ago
Tell me, do you call people from China Chinese? Japan Japanese? Germany German? If so, you're a hypocrite. You're also arguing against a strawman. I never said they weren't Roman. I only said there's nothing wrong with Byzantine. Maybe if you weren't so smugly self-righteous, you'd have better reading comprehension.
cwnyth 3mo ago
Separately, your facts are wrong, because it was centuries before that the word Byzantine was first used to describe this era of the latter eastern Roman empire. Oops, might want to read a book instead of looking at memes.

vonunov 3mo ago

> Byzaboos Hey that's fresh. Do they have Hittitomori too?

cwnyth 3mo ago
I'd love to see that! I can't take credit for the term. There are some people who are extreme fans of the Byzantine empire and defend it at every turn. I can kind of get recent history, but being a fanatic about an ancient polity strikes this trained historian as utterly bizarre.

BalinKing 3mo ago

But Wikipedia[0] says Ῥωμαῖοι transliterates to Romaioi, i.e. "Romans". [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire#Nomenclature https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire#Nomenclature

cwnyth 3mo ago
You've missed the point.
cwnyth 3mo ago
Because I was too brief while at work before, let me be fuller now: if you were to go back a thousand years and ask about the national characteristic of the emperor of Constantinople, they'd look at you crazy because you spoke English. But your question is laden with several assumptions that are completely foreign to their minds. First, Byzantine is an adjective from Byzantium, the original name of Constantinople. First and foremost, when its used in Classical and Late Antique historiography, it's describing an empire, culture, polity, etc. that centers on Constantinople, rather than other cities of the empire. It is not an ethnic marker. The people at the time would have called themselves Greek, Romans, or Syrians. Second, whether "Romaioi" or "Hellenes" is preferred waxes and wanes depending on what's en vogue at the time. Contrary to the meme, the citizens of Athens did not uniformly call themselves "Romans" (Romaioi) from the 320s onward. Some were, some weren't. What language did they speak? What ethnos, genos were they of? What does Romaioi even really mean? That will yield better answers, but again, it differs based on fashion. Lastly, the very idea of a defined "empire" would be very confusing for the ancients. What is that word? It looks like imperium, but that means domain of rule. It's not limited to those at the helm, who might call themselves imperatores, but also Augusti. It's not like a kingdom encompassing other kingdoms. It's just a modern term given to an ancient reality, with no difference at all to names like Byzantine or even Roman. See e.g. Lintott on the problems of this terminology: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/greece-and-rome/article/abs/what-was-the-imperium-romanum/26C216A77B563E7A0E93BDEE5B8EEC1E https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/greece-and-rome/arti... This whole "debate" is a charade provided by people who once complained they had to take a humanities class and thereafter were clueless about what real modern historians and philologists were discussing about this period.