3 ms·

If there had been a massive migration of hundreds of thousands of people, and even more so hundreds of thousands of slaves, from late bronze age Egypt (a powerf

If there had been a massive migration of hundreds of thousands of people, and even more so hundreds of thousands of slaves, from late bronze age Egypt (a powerful, old, highly literate kingdom), we would expect to find significant evidence of this (inscriptions, local stories, migration sites, etc). The absence of any such evidence, while not conclusive proof of course, constitutes evidence against this event happening. We also know for example that the types of beliefs detailed in Exodus, especially the idea that the Israelites worshiped Yahweh alone as the only God, are not historical. Belief and worship of other gods were common in both the ancient kingdoms of Israel and Judah long after the supposed time that the Exodus happened - in particular El (who was later associated with Yahweh) and Asherah (who was sometimes seen as the wife of Yahweh). So at least this aspect of the Exodus narrative is directly contradicted by archaeological evidence. This is similar to the reason we believe the stories in Genesis are not historical, e.g. the flood, - if they had been historical, we expect that they would have left behind certain marks; those marks haven't been found, so we have a reason to believe that they didn't happen.

palmotea 3mo ago
> We also know for example that the types of beliefs detailed in Exodus, especially the idea that the Israelites worshiped Yahweh alone as the only God, are not historical. Belief and worship of other gods were common in both the ancient kingdoms of Israel and Judah long after the supposed time that the Exodus happened I'm not sure what the point you're trying to make is. IIRC, that stuff is in the actual Bible. Like, a significant chunk of the Old Testament is about "Israelites [not] worship[ing] Yahweh alone as the only God."
- simiones 3mo ago
  This was not idolatry, as depicted in Exodus - this was full blown state religion, held in the same esteem as Yahweh, and co-existing with worship of him. So much so that El later became identified with Yahweh, and now most people reading the Bible (including Jewish people, Christians, and Muslims) believe El is just another one of Yahweh's names, or maybe the name of one of his angels.
  - palmotea 3mo ago
    > this was full blown state religion, held in the same esteem as Yahweh, and co-existing with worship of him. IIRC, I'm pretty sure there's also a lot about that in the Bible too (e.g Israelites worshiping other gods like Baal, people up to and including kings).
    - tsimionescu 3mo ago
      Not in the Book of Exodus that I was talking about, no (if for no other reasons that there are no Hebrew kings in it).
      - andrewflnr 3mo ago
        I don't know, Aaron himself orchestrating the golden calf seems as close to state-sponsored idolatry as fits in the narrative. (No comment on the rest of the epistemological clustercuss.)
  - spwa4 3mo ago
    Plus the "not" part is the weakest part of historical study and archaeology. From this time we have about 1 page of text for every 10 years for the entire continent. Imagine just how much is not recorded.
logicchains 3mo ago
>We also know for example that the types of beliefs detailed in Exodus, especially the idea that the Israelites worshiped Yahweh alone as the only God, are not historical. Belief and worship of other gods were common in both the ancient kingdoms of Israel and Judah long after the supposed time that the Exodus happened - in particular El (who was later associated with Yahweh) and Asherah (who was sometimes seen as the wife of Yahweh). So at least this aspect of the Exodus narrative is directly contradicted by archaeological evidence. I feel like you haven't read Exodus because it describes in detail the early Israelites' predilection for idolatry.
- jcranmer 3mo ago
  The book of Joshua details the supposed conquest of Canaan by the Israelites, which archaeological evidence rather disfavors--there's no discontinuous horizon in cultural adaptation between the supposed Philistines and the Hebrews following Jewish dietary laws, for example, and the settlement sites just are not inhabited during the time period that they were supposedly conquested.
  - selimthegrim 3mo ago
    Philistines were Greek/IE, not Canaanite I thought.
- amanaplanacanal 3mo ago
  Calling it idolatry is ahistorical though. Worshipping yhwh alone came much later.
BurningFrog 3mo ago
Flood legends are very common among ancient Eurasian cultures. As the last Ice Age melted away (20k–8k years ago), there were very likely several major floods in the region.
gamblor956 3mo ago
The absence of any such evidence, while not conclusive proof of course, constitutes evidence against this event happening. There is documentation in Egypt of slaves around this time, and of the subsequent departure of some unstated number of slaves. There is evidence of pig bones disappearing from trash sites on the path of the migration, and there is evidence of a shift in religious practices along the migration path. So there is some evidence of an event similar to the Exodus occurring. We're talking about something that occurred over 3000 years ago. Most events back then weren't recorded, and even then it was still so difficult and time consuming that Egypt and Ancient Greece generally left out the embarrassing parts, most of which we only know about because their contemporaries wrote about it to disgrace them (and most historians now suspect that the vast majority of negative accounts of other civilizations were wholly made up, especially those written by the Ancient Greeks). Very few nomadic migrations left evidence on the way. There is more evidence of the some sort of exodus having occurred than of the human migration from Asia into South America (note: an increasing number of historians claim the first migration was by sea from Africa, not over land from Asia).
- IAmBroom 3mo ago
  > There is documentation in Egypt of slaves around this time, and of the subsequent departure of some unstated number of slaves No one claimed the Egyptians didn't own slaves. > There is evidence of pig bones disappearing from trash sites on the path of the migration There are also many Jewish sites that had pig bones in their trash. That mandate had not yet solidified.
ButlerianJihad 3mo ago
But all of these are indeed historical. Y’all moderns have simply redefined the term to not include these types of history. That’s extremely problematic.

palmotea 3mo ago

> We also know for example that the types of beliefs detailed in Exodus, especially the idea that the Israelites worshiped Yahweh alone as the only God, are not historical. Belief and worship of other gods were common in both the ancient kingdoms of Israel and Judah long after the supposed time that the Exodus happened I'm not sure what the point you're trying to make is. IIRC, that stuff is in the actual Bible. Like, a significant chunk of the Old Testament is about "Israelites [not] worship[ing] Yahweh alone as the only God."

simiones 3mo ago
This was not idolatry, as depicted in Exodus - this was full blown state religion, held in the same esteem as Yahweh, and co-existing with worship of him. So much so that El later became identified with Yahweh, and now most people reading the Bible (including Jewish people, Christians, and Muslims) believe El is just another one of Yahweh's names, or maybe the name of one of his angels.
- palmotea 3mo ago
  > this was full blown state religion, held in the same esteem as Yahweh, and co-existing with worship of him. IIRC, I'm pretty sure there's also a lot about that in the Bible too (e.g Israelites worshiping other gods like Baal, people up to and including kings).
  - tsimionescu 3mo ago
    Not in the Book of Exodus that I was talking about, no (if for no other reasons that there are no Hebrew kings in it).
    - andrewflnr 3mo ago
      I don't know, Aaron himself orchestrating the golden calf seems as close to state-sponsored idolatry as fits in the narrative. (No comment on the rest of the epistemological clustercuss.)
- spwa4 3mo ago
  Plus the "not" part is the weakest part of historical study and archaeology. From this time we have about 1 page of text for every 10 years for the entire continent. Imagine just how much is not recorded.

logicchains 3mo ago

>We also know for example that the types of beliefs detailed in Exodus, especially the idea that the Israelites worshiped Yahweh alone as the only God, are not historical. Belief and worship of other gods were common in both the ancient kingdoms of Israel and Judah long after the supposed time that the Exodus happened - in particular El (who was later associated with Yahweh) and Asherah (who was sometimes seen as the wife of Yahweh). So at least this aspect of the Exodus narrative is directly contradicted by archaeological evidence. I feel like you haven't read Exodus because it describes in detail the early Israelites' predilection for idolatry.

jcranmer 3mo ago
The book of Joshua details the supposed conquest of Canaan by the Israelites, which archaeological evidence rather disfavors--there's no discontinuous horizon in cultural adaptation between the supposed Philistines and the Hebrews following Jewish dietary laws, for example, and the settlement sites just are not inhabited during the time period that they were supposedly conquested.
- selimthegrim 3mo ago
  Philistines were Greek/IE, not Canaanite I thought.
amanaplanacanal 3mo ago
Calling it idolatry is ahistorical though. Worshipping yhwh alone came much later.

BurningFrog 3mo ago

Flood legends are very common among ancient Eurasian cultures. As the last Ice Age melted away (20k–8k years ago), there were very likely several major floods in the region.

gamblor956 3mo ago

The absence of any such evidence, while not conclusive proof of course, constitutes evidence against this event happening. There is documentation in Egypt of slaves around this time, and of the subsequent departure of some unstated number of slaves. There is evidence of pig bones disappearing from trash sites on the path of the migration, and there is evidence of a shift in religious practices along the migration path. So there is some evidence of an event similar to the Exodus occurring. We're talking about something that occurred over 3000 years ago. Most events back then weren't recorded, and even then it was still so difficult and time consuming that Egypt and Ancient Greece generally left out the embarrassing parts, most of which we only know about because their contemporaries wrote about it to disgrace them (and most historians now suspect that the vast majority of negative accounts of other civilizations were wholly made up, especially those written by the Ancient Greeks). Very few nomadic migrations left evidence on the way. There is more evidence of the some sort of exodus having occurred than of the human migration from Asia into South America (note: an increasing number of historians claim the first migration was by sea from Africa, not over land from Asia).

IAmBroom 3mo ago
> There is documentation in Egypt of slaves around this time, and of the subsequent departure of some unstated number of slaves No one claimed the Egyptians didn't own slaves. > There is evidence of pig bones disappearing from trash sites on the path of the migration There are also many Jewish sites that had pig bones in their trash. That mandate had not yet solidified.

ButlerianJihad 3mo ago

But all of these are indeed historical. Y’all moderns have simply redefined the term to not include these types of history. That’s extremely problematic.