7 ms·

In Berlin people smoke all the time in public places. In U-bahn stations, in parks, in bars etc. And I wouldn't care less. It's not harming me in any way, like

by pimeys 14y ago

In Berlin people smoke all the time in public places. In U-bahn stations, in parks, in bars etc. And I wouldn't care less. It's not harming me in any way, like it's not also harmful if they drink a bottle of beer on their way home in the subway, which is totally accepted also. This is one of the things I didn't understand when I visited SF and NY last spring. Especially the drinking part. Parks are the best place to drink some wine or beer, if you ask me.

digitalengineer 14y ago
As a Dutchman I agree with you (and your German beers)! People relaxing and having a drink/smoke in the park? No problem. In France it's the same, but with wine.
- pimeys 14y ago
  Waiting for the summer again to be able to do that...
  - agilebyte 14y ago
    Summer... I think we had that one in the UK at some point
- rmc 14y ago
  Varies a lot by country. Technically in Ireland it's illegal to drink in public. Police can confiscate drink. However the irish police enforcment can be flexible sometimes.
barry-cotter 14y ago
I'm in favour of banning smoking in all enclosed workplaces and I can see why people are against public drinking. Cigarette smoke smells vile and triggers asthma attacks. From the Irish experience people go “outside” to the patio/courtyard. This means you can drink and smoke but people aren't forced to endure your pollution. As far as public drinking goes, yes it is lovely but not all countries have as healthy a drinking culture as Germany. I loved going to the Neckarwiese with friends when I lived in Heidelberg and having some beers and a barbecue. But most countries have more Assis than Germany per head, more assholes who would start fights, be loud and obnoxious etc. Or just more binge drinkers. I'm pretty sure legal street drinking just wouldn't work in Ireland or Britain. Too many drunks. I smoke in bars maybe twice a week and drink on the street or in a park pretty regularly.
- nickik 14y ago
  How are the forced. There have allways been bars that allowed smoking and bars that didnt. Everybody gets what they want. I see no reason why owner should do what he thinks is best.
  - barry-cotter 14y ago
    Have there really always been bars that didn't allow smoking? I never saw any in Ireland before the smoking ban. It's not a viable business model. The rationale behind a ban is approximately thus: Smoking is unpleasant for non-smokers who are a majority. Due to co-ordination problems non smoker disutility from being exposed to cigarette smoke outweighs smoker utility from smoking and this is stable and bad. The government, in an attempt to increase total utility bans smoking in workplaces and total utility goes up. Forced is perhaps the wrong word but I'm just hoping they bring in a smoking ban here in Shanghai. Going outside to smoke just isn't that much of a hardship and it makes things more pleasant for non smokers and many smokers.
    - nickik 14y ago
      > Have there really always been bars that didn't allow smoking? I never saw any in Ireland before the smoking ban. It's not a viable business model. I dont know about irland but in Switzerland I was in a Non-Smoking Irish bars for years befor the smokingban came. Also if it is not a viable buissness model it seams that most people just dont care. Why then do we need to regulate it? As far as your argument goes for utility, it seems that most non-smokers simple do not really care but the smokers care a lot. Thats why the market is the way it is (or was). Also explain this, lots of resturants where non-smoking only partly smoking befor the smoking bans, so the market does not generally seam to have a problem with banning smoking where people dont want it. My rational is that I dislick smoking in restaurants but I dont really care in bars that much. It seams to me that the total utility is much better matched if you let the market do what it does. Also the market is able to change if utility changes much faster then the goverment can change law.
- hilko 14y ago
qxcv 14y ago
> And I wouldn't care less. It's not harming me in any way, like it's not also harmful if they drink a bottle of beer on their way home in the subway, which is totally accepted also. To claim that second-hand smoke is not harmful is utterly absurd. The same goes for alcohol consumption in public places. It's fine to have a drink on the subway, but who takes care of the shattered glass the following day[0]? If you're lucky, the local government will use ratepayer money to clean it up. If you're not lucky, it stays there indefinitely. Frankly, I think that those who drink or smoke in public are being totally inconsiderate of others. [0]: This wouldn't be such a big deal if glass bottles weren't so popular. Unfortunately, they are.
- nickik 14y ago
  So in your opinion everybody who drinks in public always makes a mess? I go to the lake with friends and drink often, but we clean up and put it in one of the public bins. Also one could argue that if the park is publicly owned it should be publicly cleaned. If you dont want the park getting dirty you should let people in there. > Frankly, I think that those who drink or smoke in public are being totally inconsiderate of others. I think you can make a argument for smoking inside (or bars for example) but in a public park. Also you have to understand berlin, even if smoking is not allowed in bars it is done in almost every bar, people seem to just have rejected the legislation.
  - qxcv 14y ago
    > So in your opinion everybody who drinks in public always makes a mess? I go to the lake with friends and drink often, but we clean up and put it in one of the public bins. I was a bit harsh on drinkers. It is more smokers whom I have a beef with. What I should have said is that I feel as though a consistent approach to regulation of where glassware can and cannot be used is required. > Also one could argue that if the park is publicly owned it should be publicly cleaned. Perhaps that might be possible where you live, but it would never happen in my city. Most people here (including myself, I admit) simply don't have the necessary motivation to pick up broken glass unless it's in a place where they can't afford to ignore it (a playground, for example). I cycle-commute each day, and there has been a broken bottle sitting on one of the roads I use for the better part of a few months. The road in question has relatively little vehicle traffic, but is next to a small University and is part of a major bicycle corridor used by hundreds of cyclists each day. It would be trivially easy for just about any of the people who pass it to try and dispose of it properly, but nobody ever does. Annoyances like broken glass, buckled footpaths, etc. tend to just be ignored until somebody gets hurt. I'm not convinced that it would be possible (at least, not in the short term) to get a large number of residents to voluntarily take responsibility for fixing problems which they did not cause.
johnward 14y ago
Alcohol doesn't directly affect people standing by. Smoke does.
mafribe 14y ago
"It's not harming me in any way". This is simply wrong. Smoking tobacco is highly cancerogenic and so very harmful. Smoking is also highly unpleasant -- it's just that smokers get used to the abuse of their own bodies (and that of others) over time, and feel good about it, because the advertising industry has successfully fooled large groups of people into believing that smoking makes them more sexually attractive. I was visiting Berlin a few months ago, and found the smoke in bars and restaurants unbearable. Smoking indoors in the presence of non-smokers is cruel and shows a lack of empathy for others. I couldn't leave fast enough. I agree however that public drinking (in moderation) is fine and should be legal everywhere.

by pimeys 14y ago

digitalengineer 14y ago

As a Dutchman I agree with you (and your German beers)! People relaxing and having a drink/smoke in the park? No problem. In France it's the same, but with wine.

pimeys 14y ago
Waiting for the summer again to be able to do that...
- agilebyte 14y ago
  Summer... I think we had that one in the UK at some point
rmc 14y ago
Varies a lot by country. Technically in Ireland it's illegal to drink in public. Police can confiscate drink. However the irish police enforcment can be flexible sometimes.

barry-cotter 14y ago

I'm in favour of banning smoking in all enclosed workplaces and I can see why people are against public drinking. Cigarette smoke smells vile and triggers asthma attacks. From the Irish experience people go “outside” to the patio/courtyard. This means you can drink and smoke but people aren't forced to endure your pollution. As far as public drinking goes, yes it is lovely but not all countries have as healthy a drinking culture as Germany. I loved going to the Neckarwiese with friends when I lived in Heidelberg and having some beers and a barbecue. But most countries have more Assis than Germany per head, more assholes who would start fights, be loud and obnoxious etc. Or just more binge drinkers. I'm pretty sure legal street drinking just wouldn't work in Ireland or Britain. Too many drunks. I smoke in bars maybe twice a week and drink on the street or in a park pretty regularly.

nickik 14y ago
How are the forced. There have allways been bars that allowed smoking and bars that didnt. Everybody gets what they want. I see no reason why owner should do what he thinks is best.
- barry-cotter 14y ago
  Have there really always been bars that didn't allow smoking? I never saw any in Ireland before the smoking ban. It's not a viable business model. The rationale behind a ban is approximately thus: Smoking is unpleasant for non-smokers who are a majority. Due to co-ordination problems non smoker disutility from being exposed to cigarette smoke outweighs smoker utility from smoking and this is stable and bad. The government, in an attempt to increase total utility bans smoking in workplaces and total utility goes up. Forced is perhaps the wrong word but I'm just hoping they bring in a smoking ban here in Shanghai. Going outside to smoke just isn't that much of a hardship and it makes things more pleasant for non smokers and many smokers.
  - nickik 14y ago
    > Have there really always been bars that didn't allow smoking? I never saw any in Ireland before the smoking ban. It's not a viable business model. I dont know about irland but in Switzerland I was in a Non-Smoking Irish bars for years befor the smokingban came. Also if it is not a viable buissness model it seams that most people just dont care. Why then do we need to regulate it? As far as your argument goes for utility, it seems that most non-smokers simple do not really care but the smokers care a lot. Thats why the market is the way it is (or was). Also explain this, lots of resturants where non-smoking only partly smoking befor the smoking bans, so the market does not generally seam to have a problem with banning smoking where people dont want it. My rational is that I dislick smoking in restaurants but I dont really care in bars that much. It seams to me that the total utility is much better matched if you let the market do what it does. Also the market is able to change if utility changes much faster then the goverment can change law.
hilko 14y ago

qxcv 14y ago

> And I wouldn't care less. It's not harming me in any way, like it's not also harmful if they drink a bottle of beer on their way home in the subway, which is totally accepted also. To claim that second-hand smoke is not harmful is utterly absurd. The same goes for alcohol consumption in public places. It's fine to have a drink on the subway, but who takes care of the shattered glass the following day[0]? If you're lucky, the local government will use ratepayer money to clean it up. If you're not lucky, it stays there indefinitely. Frankly, I think that those who drink or smoke in public are being totally inconsiderate of others. [0]: This wouldn't be such a big deal if glass bottles weren't so popular. Unfortunately, they are.

nickik 14y ago
So in your opinion everybody who drinks in public always makes a mess? I go to the lake with friends and drink often, but we clean up and put it in one of the public bins. Also one could argue that if the park is publicly owned it should be publicly cleaned. If you dont want the park getting dirty you should let people in there. > Frankly, I think that those who drink or smoke in public are being totally inconsiderate of others. I think you can make a argument for smoking inside (or bars for example) but in a public park. Also you have to understand berlin, even if smoking is not allowed in bars it is done in almost every bar, people seem to just have rejected the legislation.
- qxcv 14y ago
  > So in your opinion everybody who drinks in public always makes a mess? I go to the lake with friends and drink often, but we clean up and put it in one of the public bins. I was a bit harsh on drinkers. It is more smokers whom I have a beef with. What I should have said is that I feel as though a consistent approach to regulation of where glassware can and cannot be used is required. > Also one could argue that if the park is publicly owned it should be publicly cleaned. Perhaps that might be possible where you live, but it would never happen in my city. Most people here (including myself, I admit) simply don't have the necessary motivation to pick up broken glass unless it's in a place where they can't afford to ignore it (a playground, for example). I cycle-commute each day, and there has been a broken bottle sitting on one of the roads I use for the better part of a few months. The road in question has relatively little vehicle traffic, but is next to a small University and is part of a major bicycle corridor used by hundreds of cyclists each day. It would be trivially easy for just about any of the people who pass it to try and dispose of it properly, but nobody ever does. Annoyances like broken glass, buckled footpaths, etc. tend to just be ignored until somebody gets hurt. I'm not convinced that it would be possible (at least, not in the short term) to get a large number of residents to voluntarily take responsibility for fixing problems which they did not cause.

johnward 14y ago

Alcohol doesn't directly affect people standing by. Smoke does.

mafribe 14y ago

"It's not harming me in any way". This is simply wrong. Smoking tobacco is highly cancerogenic and so very harmful. Smoking is also highly unpleasant -- it's just that smokers get used to the abuse of their own bodies (and that of others) over time, and feel good about it, because the advertising industry has successfully fooled large groups of people into believing that smoking makes them more sexually attractive. I was visiting Berlin a few months ago, and found the smoke in bars and restaurants unbearable. Smoking indoors in the presence of non-smokers is cruel and shows a lack of empathy for others. I couldn't leave fast enough. I agree however that public drinking (in moderation) is fine and should be legal everywhere.