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I often wonder why even today with falling birthrates so many people have kids. It's a personal decision, so not something you would randomly bring up with stra

I often wonder why even today with falling birthrates so many people have kids. It's a personal decision, so not something you would randomly bring up with strangers and not something one really thinks to discuss with friends until someone has a kid. Once they are on the path to question it would be rude. But it strikes me that many parents don't really think about it that much, as in the original rationale. I've had a suspicion there is something unethical about this. What choice could be more significant? Then again, maybe the personal nature of it means one is simply not aware of what other people are going through. Maybe everyone is really thinking it through. I am led to doubt it though. I'm curious if other people have had the chance to ask their own parents and felt satisfied by the results. That might be one of the few occasions you might have hope for a somewhat revealing answer. I've found this notion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antinatalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antinatalism somewhat interesting in this regard.

andsoitis 3mo ago
> why so many people have kids Biology / evolution. The drive to reproduce is baked in by natural selection. Organisms that didn’t want offspring didn’t pass on genes.
- mikestorrent 3mo ago
  Sounds like an answer from a non-parent, honestly. There's a lot more to it than that, and virtually every couple I know with children thought about it a lot before going ahead. The number one reason is because they see other families and the love and joy that their children bring into their lives. This is inspiring, and brings people around to making the decision, even if they know the sacrifices they will have to make. Boiling it all down to pure biology is stripping parents of agency to fit your worldview.
  - tchalla 3mo ago
    I don’t see a disagreement between you and parent comment.
  - sevenzero 3mo ago
    So they have kids for their personal joy and completely ignore if their kids even have a chance of a good future, got it. I am sad when I see what kids will be confronted with in the long term. Humans nowadays already cant cope with climate change and wars, this will only be multiplied tenfold for our kids.
    - foxglacier 3mo ago
      10x worse than the best time in all of history to be a human doesn't sound so bad. Even just 200 years ago, a gigantic chain of internal wars killed 25% of the entire population of my country.
    - rmunn 3mo ago
      That's not what the comment you were replying to (I'm going to avoid using terms like "parent comment" in this particular discussion as they could easily be ambiguous, heh) was saying. You may have missed the part about how "they thought about it a lot before going ahead" (emphasis mine), and also the part about "even if they know the sacrifices they [the parents] will have to make". Personally, I know (online rather than in person) at least one couple who thought about it a lot, and ended up deciding not to have kids, because they were both carriers of a recessive gene (I forget which) that could have been nasty to whatever kid ended up with both copies. Which is kind of the opposite of "completely ignor[ing] if their kids even have a chance of a good future", IMHO. Other parents thought about it and decided to have only a certain number of kids and no more, because that was how many kids they could afford to raise and launch into a path that potentially leads to a good future. Now, are there people who have kids for selfish reasons? Yes. I can think of some examples. But the people who think about it a lot and end up deciding to have kids? They're usually (not always, of course, but usually) some of the best parents around, precisely because they've thought about the sacrifices they would have to make and decided they're willing to make them for the sake of their kids' future happiness.
  - estetlinus 3mo ago
    Actually, this sounds like an answer from a male non-parent. There’s a drive to reproduce in every biological being. It has never been about comparing towards neighbors, love and joy, etc. I’m a parent, and honestly, it’s just biology.
- sevenzero 3mo ago
  Weird how I dont have this drive huh
  - eloisant 3mo ago
    Not that weird, you're in the majority now and birth rates are plummeting all over the world.
CalRobert 3mo ago
Group 1: Some people think about it and don’t have kids, Group 2 some think about it and do, Group 3 and some don’t think about it much and are (probably) more likely to end up with a kid than group 1 because most people like having sex and this group will be less careful than group 1.
- blitzar 3mo ago
  This is the pitch from Idiocracy
jstanley 3mo ago
> I've had a suspicion there is something unethical about this. Why? As a human being who was once born, I am extremely grateful for my existence, and how much thought my parents put into it beforehand is of practically no consequence. You seem to imply that if parents haven't already committed to giving their kids a perfect childhood with perfect parenting then the kids are better off not living at all?
- godwinson__4-8 3mo ago
  You can browse the Wikipedia article I linked. It offers a few possible answers to this why question. As for myself I would simply summarize that making an important choice such as bringing life into the world, without considering the consequences, is already somewhat unethical. One should think before taking an action that has irreversible consequences to anyone. In this case, the person being born. I wouldn't say I'm an antinatalist, I just find it interesting. On a rational level I'm not sure there are many good arguments against some of the conclusions there. If there are I'd be interested in hearing them. The fact that you are personally grateful for your existence is a pretty weak argument imo. If you had never been born you would not be around to know the difference. However had your existence been different it is not so hard to imagine you might feel differently. Surely your life is not so peachy that a scan of that article will be incomprehensible to you. Then again, perhaps you simply lived a far better life than I. I'm not taking a position one way or the other. As I said, I just find it interesting.
  - jstanley 3mo ago
    I did skim the Wikipedia article but it didn't seem to engage with anything I was thinking about. Almost everybody's revealed preference is to stay alive rather than to not be alive, otherwise we'd see a lot more suicide. > making an important choice such as bringing life into the world, without considering the consequences, is already somewhat unethical. This is a view you can take, but it's not as obviously important as you seem to think. An alternative view is "making an important choice such as FAILING to bring life into the world, given the opportunity to do so, without considering the consequences, is somewhat unethical." If the standard was truly that you can't have kids unless you're sure they're going to have a great life, then we would have gone extinct millions of years ago.
kqr 3mo ago
There are so many reasons it's hard to be exhaustive. Selfishly, nobody will love me like my children, at least in their early years. They're also amazing playmates and students. And they give me social permission to do silly things like climb on playground structures. They're also a great excuse to get out of stuff. Selflessly, I believe me and the mother of our children are sensible people and the world needs more sensible people. Plus someone needs to maintain the replacement rate. And it's a weird, warm, fuzzy feeling to care for one's children at one's own expense. In the intersection, it's a fun challenge to try to achieve balance in life, work, and family. I also really appreciate the chance to get a do-over of everything my parents did, keeping the good stuff and improving on the bad.
sakopov 3mo ago
I've seen men shed their egos and women become incredible caretakers when they're with their children and they carry some of that joyfulness, compassion and humanity into the world they occupy. It's a sad world without kids.

andsoitis 3mo ago

> why so many people have kids Biology / evolution. The drive to reproduce is baked in by natural selection. Organisms that didn’t want offspring didn’t pass on genes.

mikestorrent 3mo ago
Sounds like an answer from a non-parent, honestly. There's a lot more to it than that, and virtually every couple I know with children thought about it a lot before going ahead. The number one reason is because they see other families and the love and joy that their children bring into their lives. This is inspiring, and brings people around to making the decision, even if they know the sacrifices they will have to make. Boiling it all down to pure biology is stripping parents of agency to fit your worldview.
- tchalla 3mo ago
  I don’t see a disagreement between you and parent comment.
- sevenzero 3mo ago
  So they have kids for their personal joy and completely ignore if their kids even have a chance of a good future, got it. I am sad when I see what kids will be confronted with in the long term. Humans nowadays already cant cope with climate change and wars, this will only be multiplied tenfold for our kids.
  - foxglacier 3mo ago
    10x worse than the best time in all of history to be a human doesn't sound so bad. Even just 200 years ago, a gigantic chain of internal wars killed 25% of the entire population of my country.
  - rmunn 3mo ago
    That's not what the comment you were replying to (I'm going to avoid using terms like "parent comment" in this particular discussion as they could easily be ambiguous, heh) was saying. You may have missed the part about how "they thought about it a lot before going ahead" (emphasis mine), and also the part about "even if they know the sacrifices they [the parents] will have to make". Personally, I know (online rather than in person) at least one couple who thought about it a lot, and ended up deciding not to have kids, because they were both carriers of a recessive gene (I forget which) that could have been nasty to whatever kid ended up with both copies. Which is kind of the opposite of "completely ignor[ing] if their kids even have a chance of a good future", IMHO. Other parents thought about it and decided to have only a certain number of kids and no more, because that was how many kids they could afford to raise and launch into a path that potentially leads to a good future. Now, are there people who have kids for selfish reasons? Yes. I can think of some examples. But the people who think about it a lot and end up deciding to have kids? They're usually (not always, of course, but usually) some of the best parents around, precisely because they've thought about the sacrifices they would have to make and decided they're willing to make them for the sake of their kids' future happiness.
- estetlinus 3mo ago
  Actually, this sounds like an answer from a male non-parent. There’s a drive to reproduce in every biological being. It has never been about comparing towards neighbors, love and joy, etc. I’m a parent, and honestly, it’s just biology.
sevenzero 3mo ago
Weird how I dont have this drive huh
- eloisant 3mo ago
  Not that weird, you're in the majority now and birth rates are plummeting all over the world.

CalRobert 3mo ago

Group 1: Some people think about it and don’t have kids, Group 2 some think about it and do, Group 3 and some don’t think about it much and are (probably) more likely to end up with a kid than group 1 because most people like having sex and this group will be less careful than group 1.

blitzar 3mo ago
This is the pitch from Idiocracy

jstanley 3mo ago

> I've had a suspicion there is something unethical about this. Why? As a human being who was once born, I am extremely grateful for my existence, and how much thought my parents put into it beforehand is of practically no consequence. You seem to imply that if parents haven't already committed to giving their kids a perfect childhood with perfect parenting then the kids are better off not living at all?

godwinson__4-8 3mo ago
You can browse the Wikipedia article I linked. It offers a few possible answers to this why question. As for myself I would simply summarize that making an important choice such as bringing life into the world, without considering the consequences, is already somewhat unethical. One should think before taking an action that has irreversible consequences to anyone. In this case, the person being born. I wouldn't say I'm an antinatalist, I just find it interesting. On a rational level I'm not sure there are many good arguments against some of the conclusions there. If there are I'd be interested in hearing them. The fact that you are personally grateful for your existence is a pretty weak argument imo. If you had never been born you would not be around to know the difference. However had your existence been different it is not so hard to imagine you might feel differently. Surely your life is not so peachy that a scan of that article will be incomprehensible to you. Then again, perhaps you simply lived a far better life than I. I'm not taking a position one way or the other. As I said, I just find it interesting.
- jstanley 3mo ago
  I did skim the Wikipedia article but it didn't seem to engage with anything I was thinking about. Almost everybody's revealed preference is to stay alive rather than to not be alive, otherwise we'd see a lot more suicide. > making an important choice such as bringing life into the world, without considering the consequences, is already somewhat unethical. This is a view you can take, but it's not as obviously important as you seem to think. An alternative view is "making an important choice such as FAILING to bring life into the world, given the opportunity to do so, without considering the consequences, is somewhat unethical." If the standard was truly that you can't have kids unless you're sure they're going to have a great life, then we would have gone extinct millions of years ago.

kqr 3mo ago

There are so many reasons it's hard to be exhaustive. Selfishly, nobody will love me like my children, at least in their early years. They're also amazing playmates and students. And they give me social permission to do silly things like climb on playground structures. They're also a great excuse to get out of stuff. Selflessly, I believe me and the mother of our children are sensible people and the world needs more sensible people. Plus someone needs to maintain the replacement rate. And it's a weird, warm, fuzzy feeling to care for one's children at one's own expense. In the intersection, it's a fun challenge to try to achieve balance in life, work, and family. I also really appreciate the chance to get a do-over of everything my parents did, keeping the good stuff and improving on the bad.

sakopov 3mo ago

I've seen men shed their egos and women become incredible caretakers when they're with their children and they carry some of that joyfulness, compassion and humanity into the world they occupy. It's a sad world without kids.