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These are meaningless numbers, for reasons already given in this thread, but Google+ is a good product. In fact, I remember in June 2011 how, after it launched,

These are meaningless numbers, for reasons already given in this thread, but Google+ is a good product. In fact, I remember in June 2011 how, after it launched, there was a lot of press about how great it was. That applause was well-earned, in my opinion. The engineers who built it did a very good job, and the problems that Google+ has faced have been strategic in nature. On the other hand, Google+ needed, strategically, to get real use, and so far it hasn't been seeing much of that. Hangouts are useful, but the idea that people would use them as Google intended (as a "cool" emergent social behavior rather than something people would only do with people they know well) was hopeless without a context (such as a board game, a great tool for overcoming the initial social awkwardness that is common among interesting people) that could encourage the "hanging out". Without such a context squarely in the center, people won't use hangouts for more free-form purposes than "regular old" video chat. It's an admirable vision, though. This is why, in my short time at Google, I was obsessed with raising the issue of game quality, even though I was nowhere near that team (there was zero G+ activity in New York). I realized that Games had the potential to be a critical battle for the product's ability to establish itself and get users comfortable with product. With social network fatigue in an advanced state ca. 2011, the only thing that could get people in a new general-purpose social network for long enough to get comfortable with the thing was high-quality games (not Zynga shit). Google blew it on that one, resulting in a missed opportunity that can be measured in the tens to hundreds of millions, and possibly billions. Incidentally, most of my notoriety at Google (if people still know of me, and I honestly have no clue) comes from the fact that I raised the game quality issue and drew negative attention from powerful people (contrary to Google's professed "we welcome disagreement" ethos). It was that, and the fact that, when the shit hit the fan, I did some white-hat trolling and outed unethical management (eng-misc) instead of just taking it.

untog 14y ago
If people at Google still know of you I strongly suspect it is because they have read one of your posts here. No offense intended, but this is far from the first time I have read a post by you detailing how you were kicked out of Google for what you claim to be speaking truth to power. It detracts from the very valid points you made earlier in your post.
- michaelochurch 14y ago
  I wasn't kicked out. I wasn't fired. However, it's true that Google will make your life more difficult if you speak up about something that actually matters. People have been placed on PIPs for Real Names advocacy.
  - untog 14y ago
    This is exactly the conversation I didn't want to have- it isn't relevant to the original topic. That's what I meant when I said that it detracts from the point you made in your main post.
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
someperson 14y ago
Hangouts are the killer app of Google+. You're right that the "emergent" part doesn't really work well. It's a really useful tool that works much better than skyping. I've had heaps friends join Google+ purely to be part of a video chat session we have to catchup. But there really is a heap of potential here. I'm part of a language-learning study Google+ group that hosts weekly chat sessions. Unfortunately for us, the room is limited to 10 people (and two spots are taken up by the moderators), so most people would miss out. I wish the group was able to create as many hangout sessions as needed, place a single moderator + native speakers into each session. Would be a seriously killer app among language-learners... Maybe I should have a look at the API or something :P
- laureny 14y ago
  > Hangouts are the killer app of Google+. Very much so. My brother and I live in different countries in Europe and the other day, we were able to have a video conversation (through a Google Hangout) with both our phones over cellular network (I was taking a walk in a park). I'm a tech person but even I was floored this was even possible.
- LaGrange 14y ago
  Too bad they feel like the main reason for keeping them in G+ is to make me join G+, which is why I still keep away from them.
jmillikin 14y ago
> Incidentally, most of my notoriety at Google (if people > still know of me, and I honestly have no clue) comes > from the fact that I raised the game quality issue and > drew negative attention from powerful people (contrary > to Google's professed "we welcome disagreement" ethos). It is unlikely that the Google engineers present during your employment will ever forget you. Indeed, the story of Michael Church continues to echo throughout mailing lists across all of engineering. However, I doubt this is only because you irritated senior executives by sending them rambling manifestos about the inherent superiority of your self-designed card game. Although that may have been the origin of your legend, it was not truly cemented until you cross-posted them to a company-wide mailing list and then engaged in a flamewar against all comers. After your resignation, some of us compared notes on who had received the most disproportionate response to criticism. I was sure that being called a child molester in reply to pointing out your lack of credible accomplishment would win me first, but sadly I did not even place in the top three.
- jspthrowaway2 14y ago
  The tale of Michael Church resonates throughout the entire valley. It certainly isn't limited to Google. I wish a Googler on his way out would leak the threads, honestly; I want to see if they live up to the tales. Context, for the uninitiated (grab a beer before searching): "site:news.ycombinator.com michaelochurch google"
  - anatoly 14y ago
    Not limited to Google, not by a long shot. "Speaking personally, on every day that I'm blocked, I add college traditions that never existed, transpose digits of population figures or world records, and create articles on bullshit "folklore" that is often absurd; this is what Wikipedia will have to put up with if I am to be blocked from it. About 1 in 3 of my vandalisms survives for a year, and several have been reproduced on other articles." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Mike_Church http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Mike_Church http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Suspected_Wikipedia_sockpuppets_of_Mike_Church http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Suspected_Wikipedia_so... etc. It's a gift that keeps on giving.
jedbrown 14y ago
The shame is that the "social" features of the old Google Reader were better than current G+.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
yuhong 14y ago
I wonder if you tried to email Larry or Sergey.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
yason 14y ago
for reasons already given in this thread, but Google+ is a good product It is. The only thing missing is the hordes of people I could connect to. It's a lonely place to hang out at Google+ and I check my streams less often than I would want to. The best thing is that they might just be able to keep it in life-support for ages because it's hooked to other Google services. What that means, effectively, is waiting for Facebook to make a major screw up and drive a hefty flock of users to the next popular alternative—Google+.

untog 14y ago

If people at Google still know of you I strongly suspect it is because they have read one of your posts here. No offense intended, but this is far from the first time I have read a post by you detailing how you were kicked out of Google for what you claim to be speaking truth to power. It detracts from the very valid points you made earlier in your post.

michaelochurch 14y ago
I wasn't kicked out. I wasn't fired. However, it's true that Google will make your life more difficult if you speak up about something that actually matters. People have been placed on PIPs for Real Names advocacy.
- untog 14y ago
  This is exactly the conversation I didn't want to have- it isn't relevant to the original topic. That's what I meant when I said that it detracts from the point you made in your main post.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]

someperson 14y ago

Hangouts are the killer app of Google+. You're right that the "emergent" part doesn't really work well. It's a really useful tool that works much better than skyping. I've had heaps friends join Google+ purely to be part of a video chat session we have to catchup. But there really is a heap of potential here. I'm part of a language-learning study Google+ group that hosts weekly chat sessions. Unfortunately for us, the room is limited to 10 people (and two spots are taken up by the moderators), so most people would miss out. I wish the group was able to create as many hangout sessions as needed, place a single moderator + native speakers into each session. Would be a seriously killer app among language-learners... Maybe I should have a look at the API or something :P

laureny 14y ago
> Hangouts are the killer app of Google+. Very much so. My brother and I live in different countries in Europe and the other day, we were able to have a video conversation (through a Google Hangout) with both our phones over cellular network (I was taking a walk in a park). I'm a tech person but even I was floored this was even possible.
LaGrange 14y ago
Too bad they feel like the main reason for keeping them in G+ is to make me join G+, which is why I still keep away from them.

jmillikin 14y ago

> Incidentally, most of my notoriety at Google (if people > still know of me, and I honestly have no clue) comes > from the fact that I raised the game quality issue and > drew negative attention from powerful people (contrary > to Google's professed "we welcome disagreement" ethos). It is unlikely that the Google engineers present during your employment will ever forget you. Indeed, the story of Michael Church continues to echo throughout mailing lists across all of engineering. However, I doubt this is only because you irritated senior executives by sending them rambling manifestos about the inherent superiority of your self-designed card game. Although that may have been the origin of your legend, it was not truly cemented until you cross-posted them to a company-wide mailing list and then engaged in a flamewar against all comers. After your resignation, some of us compared notes on who had received the most disproportionate response to criticism. I was sure that being called a child molester in reply to pointing out your lack of credible accomplishment would win me first, but sadly I did not even place in the top three.

jspthrowaway2 14y ago
The tale of Michael Church resonates throughout the entire valley. It certainly isn't limited to Google. I wish a Googler on his way out would leak the threads, honestly; I want to see if they live up to the tales. Context, for the uninitiated (grab a beer before searching): "site:news.ycombinator.com michaelochurch google"
- anatoly 14y ago
  Not limited to Google, not by a long shot. "Speaking personally, on every day that I'm blocked, I add college traditions that never existed, transpose digits of population figures or world records, and create articles on bullshit "folklore" that is often absurd; this is what Wikipedia will have to put up with if I am to be blocked from it. About 1 in 3 of my vandalisms survives for a year, and several have been reproduced on other articles." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Mike_Church http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Mike_Church http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Suspected_Wikipedia_sockpuppets_of_Mike_Church http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Suspected_Wikipedia_so... etc. It's a gift that keeps on giving.

jedbrown 14y ago

The shame is that the "social" features of the old Google Reader were better than current G+.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

yuhong 14y ago

I wonder if you tried to email Larry or Sergey.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

yason 14y ago

for reasons already given in this thread, but Google+ is a good product It is. The only thing missing is the hordes of people I could connect to. It's a lonely place to hang out at Google+ and I check my streams less often than I would want to. The best thing is that they might just be able to keep it in life-support for ages because it's hooked to other Google services. What that means, effectively, is waiting for Facebook to make a major screw up and drive a hefty flock of users to the next popular alternative—Google+.