6 ms·

This is impressive - but is a license change, from the PostgresQL license [0] to AGPL [1]. I like the AGPL and think it's the best truly free open source licen

This is impressive - but is a license change, from the PostgresQL license [0] to AGPL [1]. I like the AGPL and think it's the best truly free open source license, but I worry if this is compatible. Ie, if this is rewritten from the original source, should the original apply? (Yes.) There has been a trend to rewrite open source software with a more restrictive license (like coretools in Rust). This looks considerably more ethical by choosing the AGPL - I just wonder, safer with no change at all? [0] https://www.postgresql.org/about/licence/ https://www.postgresql.org/about/licence/ [1] https://github.com/malisper/pgrust?tab=AGPL-3.0-1-ov-file https://github.com/malisper/pgrust?tab=AGPL-3.0-1-ov-file

otterley 3mo ago
If this software was written by a mechanical process, the license is a nullity. It’s public domain.
- teraflop 3mo ago
  Being created by a "mechanical process" from an existing creative work doesn't mean it's not a derivative work. For instance, if I take a copy of $BIG_BUDGET_MOVIE, and resample the video frames from 1080p to 720p through a purely mechanical transformation, that doesn't make the output public domain.
  - otterley 3mo ago
    You might be right, if it is a derivative work and not a new one. There’s some evidence that the authors consider it a new one because they’re attempting to change its license. The BSD license doesn’t explicitly convey the right to create derivative works but it does convey the right to “modify” the software. (They seem similar but “modify” is a narrower verb.) So is this a modification? A derivative work? A new work entirely? If it shares no code with the work from which it was derived, things are more complex than it may seem (and it no longer fits the “compressed video” analogy very well).
    - bluGill 3mo ago
      The law and courts are not really settled here from what I can tell. I expect some day hundreds of millions $$$ will be spent on this
- cestith 3mo ago
  It wasn’t written by a mechanical process, though. It was ported (translated) from an existing creative work into a new language. Surely you wouldn’t say a Spanish translation of a Harry Potter work is in the public domain while the original work is under copyright?
  - otterley 3mo ago
    I would agree with you but for the author’s attempt to publish it under a new license. I think they can either claim it’s a new work (in which case it’s public domain) or claim it’s a derivative work (in which case I don’t think they can change the license). I imagine a court would call it a derivative work if tested.
    - cestith 3mo ago
      Things get released as GPL or AGPL that were originally BSD or MIT license all the time. The terms of the copyleft license include all the terms of the attribution licenses. Whether this is a valid thing legally I’m not sure but it doesn’t seem anyone’s challenged it. BSD code is often found in closed-source proprietary products as long as the required attributions are met and the original contributors are understood not to be held to any responsibility or warranty. The licenses tend to say unmodified or modified copies can be redistributed in source or binary form “provided that the following conditions are met”. Relicensing the code in a way that guarantees those conditions are met has been the accepted thing to do in the community for years - whether that’s GPL/LGPL/AGPL or a proprietary license.
      - otterley 3mo ago
        The BSD license (which is the one at issue here) does not explicitly permit the licensee to change the license terms of covered software upon redistribution. Perhaps it would be permitted under an expansive interpretation, but under a narrow reading, it might not be. The default rule, however, is that all rights not granted by license remain with the owner. As you said, the question has never been litigated or settled.
mustache_kimono 3mo ago
Wow, yeah, really hate this.
eurleif 3mo ago
You seem to have the restrictiveness backwards? The MIT license (uutils coreutils) is less restrictive than the GPL (GNU coreutils), and the AGPL is more restrictive than the PostgreSQL license. And it doesn't violate the PostgreSQL license to license the rewrite more restrictively. That's part of what makes MIT-style licenses less restrictive than the GPL or AGPL: they allow for more-restrictive relicensing.
- vintagedave 3mo ago
  Perhaps ‘restrictive’ was a poor choice of words. ‘Less free’ in the free-software sense. I’m still putting together my thoughts on various open source licenses especially as we see automated AI rewriting.
  - self_awareness 3mo ago
    I think licensing will have to be re-invented, because now it's trivial to just say: claude, do a "clean-room implementation", so that noone can accuse me of stealing code. That's what LLM companies have done for years anyway. Inline completions are trained on licensed code. And nobody cares! ;)
LastTrain 3mo ago
If you don’t like the license just let an LLM spend a few days “porting” it and give that port any license you like because that is apparently what we do now.
- ____tom____ 3mo ago
  Yeah. I'm gonna have an LLM rewrite Star Wars and then film it. Should be fine, right?
  - deadbabe 3mo ago
    Star Wars itself is a rewrite of King Arthur stuff so go right the fuck ahead.
  - processunknown 3mo ago
    LGTM. copyright laws don't matter anymore.
    - ur-whale 3mo ago
      > LGTM. copyright laws don't matter anymore. hear hear, and good riddance too.
    - moi2388 3mo ago
      The only good thing to come out of AI.
      - preisschild 3mo ago
        How is this good? Copyleft licenses are also being ignored.
        moi2388 3mo ago
        Patents and copyright stifles innovation. Knowledge should be communal and free.
maxloh 3mo ago
The PostgreSQL License is a variant of the BSD license and is therefore compatible with the (A)GPL. Comprehend it this way: You create a blank (A)GPL project and incorporate the upstream BSD codebase into it. While those original upstream files remain under their original permissive license, the project as a whole is governed by the (A)GPL (plus the attribution requirements of the upstream license, which the GPL permits). From there, you can add your own code under the AGPL and distribute the combined work under the AGPL. If someone takes your code and uses only your portion, they can use it under the AGPL alone. However, if they also include the upstream source code, then the attribution requirements of the upstream license must still be met.
- pavon 3mo ago
  Yes, BSD licenses are compatible with AGPL meaning BSD licensed code can be combined with AGPL licensed code while complying with both licenses. However, it does not give you permission to relicense the BSD code (or derivative works) as AGPL. The author is free to license any new code they write as AGPL, however the license for the machine translated code is another question. If it is considered a derivative work (which I think it should be) then it must remain under the Postgres license. If it is not a derivative work, then for copyright to apply at all then it must be an "original work" which has "at least a modicum" of creativity applied by malisper in the translation. If this is satisfied then malisper could choose any license for the translated code they want, compatible with Postgres or not. If it isn't satisfied then no license applies, because it isn't eligible for copyright - essentially it is public domain. The safe and polite thing to do is to keep the same license when performing machine translation.
  - maxloh 3mo ago
    IANAL, but calling this "relicensing" is technically inaccurate. It is more precise to describe it as adding constraints. When you combine your work with upstream code, you are layering additional requirements (like copyleft) onto the existing attribution requirements. The original limitations remain in effect. Therefore, it is not a shift from A to B, but rather from A to A ∪ B. This practice is entirely compatible with the PostgreSQL License, but it is often prohibited by GPL variants. You typically cannot combine GPL code with code under most other copyleft licenses, such as the Eclipse Public License. Regarding copyright status, AI-assisted work is increasingly recognized as copyrightable in many jurisdictions, provided the process involves a sufficient level of human creative input (though the specific threshold varies by jurisdiction). Only work generated purely by AI, with no human involvement, is arguably public domain. In a case like this, which is akin to "pair programming," the output is almost certainly copyrightable.
MuteXR 3mo ago
The Postgres license is already fully compatible with the AGPL. BSD/MIT is more permissive.
ahachete 3mo ago
AGPL and copyleft licenses are not restrictive, they provide forward (open source) guarantees. The only thing they "restrict" is the ability to remove freedoms. Therefore is not a restriction, is a guarantee. A guarantee that the project will endure as open source. I wouldn't go as far as calling permissive licensing "restrictive" because they actually allow for reducing freedoms; but copyleft is definitely not restrictive at all, it's the opposite. Having said that, I like and appreciate both kind of licenses and I have and will continue creating open source software using ones or the others.

otterley 3mo ago

If this software was written by a mechanical process, the license is a nullity. It’s public domain.

teraflop 3mo ago
Being created by a "mechanical process" from an existing creative work doesn't mean it's not a derivative work. For instance, if I take a copy of $BIG_BUDGET_MOVIE, and resample the video frames from 1080p to 720p through a purely mechanical transformation, that doesn't make the output public domain.
- otterley 3mo ago
  You might be right, if it is a derivative work and not a new one. There’s some evidence that the authors consider it a new one because they’re attempting to change its license. The BSD license doesn’t explicitly convey the right to create derivative works but it does convey the right to “modify” the software. (They seem similar but “modify” is a narrower verb.) So is this a modification? A derivative work? A new work entirely? If it shares no code with the work from which it was derived, things are more complex than it may seem (and it no longer fits the “compressed video” analogy very well).
  - bluGill 3mo ago
    The law and courts are not really settled here from what I can tell. I expect some day hundreds of millions $$$ will be spent on this
cestith 3mo ago
It wasn’t written by a mechanical process, though. It was ported (translated) from an existing creative work into a new language. Surely you wouldn’t say a Spanish translation of a Harry Potter work is in the public domain while the original work is under copyright?
- otterley 3mo ago
  I would agree with you but for the author’s attempt to publish it under a new license. I think they can either claim it’s a new work (in which case it’s public domain) or claim it’s a derivative work (in which case I don’t think they can change the license). I imagine a court would call it a derivative work if tested.
  - cestith 3mo ago
    Things get released as GPL or AGPL that were originally BSD or MIT license all the time. The terms of the copyleft license include all the terms of the attribution licenses. Whether this is a valid thing legally I’m not sure but it doesn’t seem anyone’s challenged it. BSD code is often found in closed-source proprietary products as long as the required attributions are met and the original contributors are understood not to be held to any responsibility or warranty. The licenses tend to say unmodified or modified copies can be redistributed in source or binary form “provided that the following conditions are met”. Relicensing the code in a way that guarantees those conditions are met has been the accepted thing to do in the community for years - whether that’s GPL/LGPL/AGPL or a proprietary license.
    - otterley 3mo ago
      The BSD license (which is the one at issue here) does not explicitly permit the licensee to change the license terms of covered software upon redistribution. Perhaps it would be permitted under an expansive interpretation, but under a narrow reading, it might not be. The default rule, however, is that all rights not granted by license remain with the owner. As you said, the question has never been litigated or settled.

mustache_kimono 3mo ago

Wow, yeah, really hate this.

eurleif 3mo ago

You seem to have the restrictiveness backwards? The MIT license (uutils coreutils) is less restrictive than the GPL (GNU coreutils), and the AGPL is more restrictive than the PostgreSQL license. And it doesn't violate the PostgreSQL license to license the rewrite more restrictively. That's part of what makes MIT-style licenses less restrictive than the GPL or AGPL: they allow for more-restrictive relicensing.

vintagedave 3mo ago
Perhaps ‘restrictive’ was a poor choice of words. ‘Less free’ in the free-software sense. I’m still putting together my thoughts on various open source licenses especially as we see automated AI rewriting.
- self_awareness 3mo ago
  I think licensing will have to be re-invented, because now it's trivial to just say: claude, do a "clean-room implementation", so that noone can accuse me of stealing code. That's what LLM companies have done for years anyway. Inline completions are trained on licensed code. And nobody cares! ;)

LastTrain 3mo ago

If you don’t like the license just let an LLM spend a few days “porting” it and give that port any license you like because that is apparently what we do now.

____tom____ 3mo ago
Yeah. I'm gonna have an LLM rewrite Star Wars and then film it. Should be fine, right?
- deadbabe 3mo ago
  Star Wars itself is a rewrite of King Arthur stuff so go right the fuck ahead.
- processunknown 3mo ago
  LGTM. copyright laws don't matter anymore.
  - ur-whale 3mo ago
    > LGTM. copyright laws don't matter anymore. hear hear, and good riddance too.
  - moi2388 3mo ago
    The only good thing to come out of AI.
    - preisschild 3mo ago
      How is this good? Copyleft licenses are also being ignored.
      - moi2388 3mo ago
        Patents and copyright stifles innovation. Knowledge should be communal and free.

maxloh 3mo ago

The PostgreSQL License is a variant of the BSD license and is therefore compatible with the (A)GPL. Comprehend it this way: You create a blank (A)GPL project and incorporate the upstream BSD codebase into it. While those original upstream files remain under their original permissive license, the project as a whole is governed by the (A)GPL (plus the attribution requirements of the upstream license, which the GPL permits). From there, you can add your own code under the AGPL and distribute the combined work under the AGPL. If someone takes your code and uses only your portion, they can use it under the AGPL alone. However, if they also include the upstream source code, then the attribution requirements of the upstream license must still be met.

pavon 3mo ago
Yes, BSD licenses are compatible with AGPL meaning BSD licensed code can be combined with AGPL licensed code while complying with both licenses. However, it does not give you permission to relicense the BSD code (or derivative works) as AGPL. The author is free to license any new code they write as AGPL, however the license for the machine translated code is another question. If it is considered a derivative work (which I think it should be) then it must remain under the Postgres license. If it is not a derivative work, then for copyright to apply at all then it must be an "original work" which has "at least a modicum" of creativity applied by malisper in the translation. If this is satisfied then malisper could choose any license for the translated code they want, compatible with Postgres or not. If it isn't satisfied then no license applies, because it isn't eligible for copyright - essentially it is public domain. The safe and polite thing to do is to keep the same license when performing machine translation.
- maxloh 3mo ago
  IANAL, but calling this "relicensing" is technically inaccurate. It is more precise to describe it as adding constraints. When you combine your work with upstream code, you are layering additional requirements (like copyleft) onto the existing attribution requirements. The original limitations remain in effect. Therefore, it is not a shift from A to B, but rather from A to A ∪ B. This practice is entirely compatible with the PostgreSQL License, but it is often prohibited by GPL variants. You typically cannot combine GPL code with code under most other copyleft licenses, such as the Eclipse Public License. Regarding copyright status, AI-assisted work is increasingly recognized as copyrightable in many jurisdictions, provided the process involves a sufficient level of human creative input (though the specific threshold varies by jurisdiction). Only work generated purely by AI, with no human involvement, is arguably public domain. In a case like this, which is akin to "pair programming," the output is almost certainly copyrightable.

MuteXR 3mo ago

The Postgres license is already fully compatible with the AGPL. BSD/MIT is more permissive.

ahachete 3mo ago

AGPL and copyleft licenses are not restrictive, they provide forward (open source) guarantees. The only thing they "restrict" is the ability to remove freedoms. Therefore is not a restriction, is a guarantee. A guarantee that the project will endure as open source. I wouldn't go as far as calling permissive licensing "restrictive" because they actually allow for reducing freedoms; but copyleft is definitely not restrictive at all, it's the opposite. Having said that, I like and appreciate both kind of licenses and I have and will continue creating open source software using ones or the others.