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Its more depressing to see that we have such a low morality, that it apperenly doesn't matter what you do as long as you make great tech? My philosophy is, tha

Its more depressing to see that we have such a low morality, that it apperenly doesn't matter what you do as long as you make great tech? My philosophy is, that the better i have it, the more responsibliltiy I can/have to carry. People in tech are above avg successful and we have a thinking job. I would imagine that our world would be better if more people would care if they see a Tesla and feel a little bit bad. Yes. But there is also a huge difference between having the option between 5 different very good models and just excluding one vs. being forced to use something because there is no alternative. I'm a hardcore nerd. I'm so hardcore, i consider not just the tech itself but the environment of the tech.

mlrtime 3mo ago
"low morality" and "care" are keywords that you are trying to manipulate the reader to the [right] side of some cause. I don't feel at all bad seeing a Tesla, does that make me "low morality"?
- Lomlioto 3mo ago
  It might make you less moral. Elon Musk is not someone. He is the CEO of Tesla and owning Tesla made it possible for him to buy Twitter. He is literaly the richest person on the planet and changes opinions by controlling Twitter as a platform (1984 anyone?) He has more reach and more money than anyone else. His character clearly shows that you can't trust him. It doesn't even matter if he sometimes does something good, he doesn't care. Being responsible for cutting USAID without any plan? This killed real humans and kids. The richest person on the planet is responsible for this. This becomes a real issue for everything dangerous he does because he just pushes stuff, doesn't matter if it has long term consequences. Polluting our atmosphere with Starlink satelites? Who cares eh? He doesn't. Instead him thinking about making our planet better, he thinks its fundamental that we become a multi-planet species. We are in 2026 not in 2100. We haven't even solved basic income, food stability etc. Tesla is not a random company.
  - deleted 3mo ago
    [deleted]
  - urbsgpw 3mo ago
    I mean ok, starlink could be an issue. But the USAID defunding is an ideological stance with which you can, based on your own stance, agree or disagree. You could also argue that without USAID in the first place, there wouldn't be incentives for overpopulation? My point being, it seems incredibly simplistic to just assume that aid is good and no aid is bad. This is just first order effects that you're looking at. Also, if you want to look at how real world systems operate (u like USAID, for example, but NATO, a western imperialist project, operates much the same), institutions rarely respond to slow change (i.e. evolution). That's the surest route to keep the status quo (once a government agency has been set up, it will rarely be wound down). Now maybe the status quo is preferable! But maybe it isn't. And maybe - most likely - it depends on subjective preferences and your Weltanschauung. And I would argue that for all his marketing and missing deadlines, the man has changed the world for the better (my view). And I would also argue if he were a Biden and Harris supporter, this comment section would look completely different. And that tells us just as much about the HN crowd as it does about Elon. Now I won't go into his political views, but he obviously isn't alone with those views (for which I think HN believes are influenced by Elon, which is incredibly patronizing) and maybe, just maybe, there are valid reasons for those views. As for the model itself - seems like a similar set of metrics we always get with SOTA and near SOTA models, they compare themselves to anthropic and they are usually way cheaper. But the combination of the harness (claude code) and the models makes their end product noticeably better than the competition (admittedly haven't tried codex). I'll definitely give it a try with pi if its on openrouter (currently using GLM 5.2 there mainly).
    - Jtarii 3mo ago
      So your stance is withdrawing aid and directly causing the deaths of millions is morally ambiguous/neutral because the aid contributed to the larger population in the first place? This just seems like such a comically evil position to hold I don't know if I am understanding you correctly.
small_model 3mo ago
[flagged]
- Lomlioto 3mo ago
  Thats a very weak argument I would say. The internet is a technology, Tesla is the car company which makes Elon Musk rich. Elon Musk is the richest person on the whole planet who has no character / integrity. if elon Musk decides to do something, he does it until someone else says no. Grok and Child pornography? No issue. EU says no, now Musk does something against it. elon Musk has no motivation at all to be critical about what he does, we as a society apparently have to play the bad cop.
  - twilo 3mo ago
    Saying someone else doesn’t have character and integrity is generally a good indicator of your own self.
    - estearum 3mo ago
      "Empathy" is a pre-requisite for nearly all the traits we'd regard as "character and integrity," and Elon has vocally and specifically spoken out against the concept of empathy itself. Then he has behaved as if he had a total lack of empathy as well. He's achieved some great things, but all of them can be explained by low-character/low-integrity traits like greed and narcissism. Not one thing I've ever heard of him doing invokes an explanation of, and therefore produces evidence of, character and integrity.
      - small_model 3mo ago
        No he hasn't he has warned against empathy that leads to harm (i.e. suicidal empathy). Over empathy is a bad character trait, it leads to being used/manipulated/weakness.
        estearum 3mo ago
w4yai 3mo ago
[flagged]
- wizzwizz4 3mo ago
  It is not "being so brainwashed" to hold that MechaHitler is "low morality". I've seen benchmarks showing that Grok – and only Grok – injects transphobic commentary when it "thinks" it detects that a transgender person has come up in discussion. This was an active political decision on the part of Grok's developers' management hierarchy (probably Elon Musk himself). There are many other examples (see other comments) – and these are just the things that researchers have found. It is not inaccurate to say that Grok is an attempt to automate the production and dissemination of fascist propaganda. Ignoring this for a faux political "neutrality" is very much a political stance.
  - w4yai 3mo ago
    I'm afraid that you are... You've been hearing "Elon bad! Elon bad!" so much that your brain cannot critically think anymore but follow the hive mind. How Hitler and Elon are on the same level, exactly ? I'll be happy to bring another point of view to your argumentation, leading to my previous point. > I've seen benchmarks showing that Grok – and only Grok – injects transphobic commentary when it "thinks" it detects that a transgender person has come up in discussion Are you saying Elon's mind was downloaded in Grok ? What are you talking about exactly ? Just asked about the opinion of Grok about transgenderism : https://i.imgur.com/M9v4MGj.png https://i.imgur.com/M9v4MGj.png I haven't seen anything wrong about it. You know what ? Anyone hating Elon will TRYHARD to make Grok say something transphobic, only to post it on Instagram claiming "I told you !!!". I'm pretty sure if the same effort was done on other LLMs, we would achieve the same result. Do you think people are really neutral regarding this topic ? Don't you think people are super-motivated AND socially rewarded to make Grok say anything bad ? Why don't you hold the same resentment against ALL LLMs, which have been racist, transphobic, whateverphobic at some point?
    - Lomlioto 3mo ago
      You are aware that Elon Musk introdcued Grokipedia to redefine terms right? You do understand tha "MechaHitler" reference is literaly Grok itself? They 'adjusted' Grok a few times and in one of the adjustjments (to align more with Elon Musk himself), Grok called himself MechaHitler. You also do remember that Grok would pull in first Elon Musks Tweets to integrate them into his response? Also known. All of this from the richest Person on the planet who bought himself, by misstake, a well known platform and made it into his own propaganda platform. Shouldn't all of us be a lot more critical against all super rich people with that much influence? Including Jeff Bezos, Murdochs etc.?
highmastdon 3mo ago
Speak facts. Don't hide behind morality this, care that, environment and virtue signalling... Tell me, what is the factual things Grok model does wrong and is factual incorrect?
- bakies 3mo ago
  Self proclaimed Mecha-hitler powered by an illegal gas generator polluting low income neighborhoods
  - gordonhart 3mo ago
    The gas generators powering the datacenter rented by both Google and Anthropic? Where is the moral stance against Gemini and Claude?
    - bakies 3mo ago
      In their respective threads
- lykr0n 3mo ago
  > factual things Grok model does wrong It convinced u/highmastdon to go out and be an elon musk dick rider. It also convinced them that "hid[ing] behind morality" is somehow a bad thing, which shows everyone the quality of person they are.
- Lomlioto 3mo ago
  I don't hide behind morality. This shows how different our values are, eh? I follow climate change, social unrest, philosophical question of good/bad, religions, beliefes etc. since i'm 12? I became a nihilist with 16. I have put my own life in danger at least twice to save another human. I read books and understood there messages like 1984, brave new world etc.
mparis 3mo ago
> I would imagine that our world would be better if more people would care if they see a Tesla and feel a little bit bad. Yes. I mean this question fairly as I am curious how you think about the trade-offs on the way to your moral choice. Not trying to manufacture a “gotcha” or anything. Based on your response, I am inferring and assuming that you think electric vehicles are a net positive for society when compared to internal-combustion-engine cars (I was afraid to type ICE as to not accidentally upset some other political dispositions). I am also assuming: - Tesla’s are high quality EVs - Tesla’s are amongst the most widely available and affordable EVs in the US, the worlds second largest car market Then a bit more speculative but I’d also argue that Tesla is somewhat responsible for bringing forth the EV transition around the world as I don’t think the other manufacturers would be there had it not been for Tesla going first (but who knows). And lastly would callout that Tesla is a large 20+ year old organization with thousands of people who have worked there and contributed to their success and proliferation of EVs. So, given all this. How do you consider the trade-offs that lead you to say that the moral choice is to shun Tesla as a whole because of the actions of a loud, politically-decisive CEO? At which level of political involvement does the CEOs actions weigh more than the collective contributions of the rest of the organization? What would you say if EV adoption as a whole takes a huge long-term hit because people stop buying the most well known EVs available in the US for political reasons? I do frown a bit when thinking that one man’s politics will cause a large tribe to change their actions in such a way that we fail to reach the end state that we claim to value. Essentially, I’m curious how you weigh “I really don’t like the CEOs politics” with “I more or less agree with the mission of the company” and how that leads you to your perspective on the moral choice. PS. I am not a shareholder of any musk properties, mostly because I avoid meme stocks, and do not nor have ever worked at his companies. In general, I feel pretty neutral towards the whole ordeal.
- Lomlioto 3mo ago
  I think Tesla got its fair share of success and and its now time to dismantel it because of Elon Musk. There are enough alternatives here. I'm highly disappointed that it has to be like this/should be like this, but it gives Elon Musk too much power which he uses to destroy even more. Also his missing character gives me worries for the future: Not only did he try to manipulate directly the demogracy in germany with going live with AfD, he now also ignorantly burns satelites in our atmosphere and no one is saying no or slow down. I find the level of Elon Musk followers nearly cult like and find it irritating that so many say "Elon Musk is not Tesla" despite the fact that he is the CEO and owns quite a lot of Tesla shares. All of this pressure should force Elon Musk to appologize and put him back in his place as a form of social opposition, but this clearly doesn't work
Demiurge 3mo ago
I came to this thread trying to understand the technical capabilities of this release and how it fits into the current competition. I want to see a discussion about this, but I can't find it, because every reply is like yours, about philosophy and morality. It's frustrating, because I can separate the physics and the philosophy when I examine something. I can be interested in understanding how a nuclear bomb works, and also never want to use it at the same time. I'm here to learn something new, and your philosophy or what kind of nerd you are is not something I wanted to learn. Do you understand? And yes, clearly I jumped into a pointless thread adding no new information of value. I am sorry to everyone about this. I'm just trying to plead with everyone reading my comment to take a step back, and let a thread about the technicalities stay on topic, and maybe just stay in the other thread about the mechahitler stuff. Thank you, if you do.
- bakies 3mo ago
  If you hit the [-] the whole thread gets hidden you can read the comments you're looking for while very easily ignoring this one and your morality
  - Demiurge 3mo ago
    That's a great feature... I think I just collapsed 10 threads last night and gave up. I decided to refresh the page this morning, and found a new comment at the top that resonated with my experience last night.
- Lomlioto 3mo ago
  So we just let it go? No consequences anymore? No reminder of what Grok stands for? Lets forget eh?
  - Demiurge 3mo ago
    No, you focus. Do you think you can focus on something other than mechahitler? Do you go to bathroom and can't poop because of Elon Musk?

mlrtime 3mo ago

"low morality" and "care" are keywords that you are trying to manipulate the reader to the [right] side of some cause. I don't feel at all bad seeing a Tesla, does that make me "low morality"?

Lomlioto 3mo ago
It might make you less moral. Elon Musk is not someone. He is the CEO of Tesla and owning Tesla made it possible for him to buy Twitter. He is literaly the richest person on the planet and changes opinions by controlling Twitter as a platform (1984 anyone?) He has more reach and more money than anyone else. His character clearly shows that you can't trust him. It doesn't even matter if he sometimes does something good, he doesn't care. Being responsible for cutting USAID without any plan? This killed real humans and kids. The richest person on the planet is responsible for this. This becomes a real issue for everything dangerous he does because he just pushes stuff, doesn't matter if it has long term consequences. Polluting our atmosphere with Starlink satelites? Who cares eh? He doesn't. Instead him thinking about making our planet better, he thinks its fundamental that we become a multi-planet species. We are in 2026 not in 2100. We haven't even solved basic income, food stability etc. Tesla is not a random company.
- deleted 3mo ago
  [deleted]
- urbsgpw 3mo ago
  I mean ok, starlink could be an issue. But the USAID defunding is an ideological stance with which you can, based on your own stance, agree or disagree. You could also argue that without USAID in the first place, there wouldn't be incentives for overpopulation? My point being, it seems incredibly simplistic to just assume that aid is good and no aid is bad. This is just first order effects that you're looking at. Also, if you want to look at how real world systems operate (u like USAID, for example, but NATO, a western imperialist project, operates much the same), institutions rarely respond to slow change (i.e. evolution). That's the surest route to keep the status quo (once a government agency has been set up, it will rarely be wound down). Now maybe the status quo is preferable! But maybe it isn't. And maybe - most likely - it depends on subjective preferences and your Weltanschauung. And I would argue that for all his marketing and missing deadlines, the man has changed the world for the better (my view). And I would also argue if he were a Biden and Harris supporter, this comment section would look completely different. And that tells us just as much about the HN crowd as it does about Elon. Now I won't go into his political views, but he obviously isn't alone with those views (for which I think HN believes are influenced by Elon, which is incredibly patronizing) and maybe, just maybe, there are valid reasons for those views. As for the model itself - seems like a similar set of metrics we always get with SOTA and near SOTA models, they compare themselves to anthropic and they are usually way cheaper. But the combination of the harness (claude code) and the models makes their end product noticeably better than the competition (admittedly haven't tried codex). I'll definitely give it a try with pi if its on openrouter (currently using GLM 5.2 there mainly).
  - Jtarii 3mo ago
    So your stance is withdrawing aid and directly causing the deaths of millions is morally ambiguous/neutral because the aid contributed to the larger population in the first place? This just seems like such a comically evil position to hold I don't know if I am understanding you correctly.

small_model 3mo ago

[flagged]

Lomlioto 3mo ago
Thats a very weak argument I would say. The internet is a technology, Tesla is the car company which makes Elon Musk rich. Elon Musk is the richest person on the whole planet who has no character / integrity. if elon Musk decides to do something, he does it until someone else says no. Grok and Child pornography? No issue. EU says no, now Musk does something against it. elon Musk has no motivation at all to be critical about what he does, we as a society apparently have to play the bad cop.
- twilo 3mo ago
  Saying someone else doesn’t have character and integrity is generally a good indicator of your own self.
  - estearum 3mo ago
    "Empathy" is a pre-requisite for nearly all the traits we'd regard as "character and integrity," and Elon has vocally and specifically spoken out against the concept of empathy itself. Then he has behaved as if he had a total lack of empathy as well. He's achieved some great things, but all of them can be explained by low-character/low-integrity traits like greed and narcissism. Not one thing I've ever heard of him doing invokes an explanation of, and therefore produces evidence of, character and integrity.
    - small_model 3mo ago
      No he hasn't he has warned against empathy that leads to harm (i.e. suicidal empathy). Over empathy is a bad character trait, it leads to being used/manipulated/weakness.
      - estearum 3mo ago

w4yai 3mo ago

[flagged]

wizzwizz4 3mo ago
It is not "being so brainwashed" to hold that MechaHitler is "low morality". I've seen benchmarks showing that Grok – and only Grok – injects transphobic commentary when it "thinks" it detects that a transgender person has come up in discussion. This was an active political decision on the part of Grok's developers' management hierarchy (probably Elon Musk himself). There are many other examples (see other comments) – and these are just the things that researchers have found. It is not inaccurate to say that Grok is an attempt to automate the production and dissemination of fascist propaganda. Ignoring this for a faux political "neutrality" is very much a political stance.
- w4yai 3mo ago
  I'm afraid that you are... You've been hearing "Elon bad! Elon bad!" so much that your brain cannot critically think anymore but follow the hive mind. How Hitler and Elon are on the same level, exactly ? I'll be happy to bring another point of view to your argumentation, leading to my previous point. > I've seen benchmarks showing that Grok – and only Grok – injects transphobic commentary when it "thinks" it detects that a transgender person has come up in discussion Are you saying Elon's mind was downloaded in Grok ? What are you talking about exactly ? Just asked about the opinion of Grok about transgenderism : https://i.imgur.com/M9v4MGj.png https://i.imgur.com/M9v4MGj.png I haven't seen anything wrong about it. You know what ? Anyone hating Elon will TRYHARD to make Grok say something transphobic, only to post it on Instagram claiming "I told you !!!". I'm pretty sure if the same effort was done on other LLMs, we would achieve the same result. Do you think people are really neutral regarding this topic ? Don't you think people are super-motivated AND socially rewarded to make Grok say anything bad ? Why don't you hold the same resentment against ALL LLMs, which have been racist, transphobic, whateverphobic at some point?
  - Lomlioto 3mo ago
    You are aware that Elon Musk introdcued Grokipedia to redefine terms right? You do understand tha "MechaHitler" reference is literaly Grok itself? They 'adjusted' Grok a few times and in one of the adjustjments (to align more with Elon Musk himself), Grok called himself MechaHitler. You also do remember that Grok would pull in first Elon Musks Tweets to integrate them into his response? Also known. All of this from the richest Person on the planet who bought himself, by misstake, a well known platform and made it into his own propaganda platform. Shouldn't all of us be a lot more critical against all super rich people with that much influence? Including Jeff Bezos, Murdochs etc.?

highmastdon 3mo ago

Speak facts. Don't hide behind morality this, care that, environment and virtue signalling... Tell me, what is the factual things Grok model does wrong and is factual incorrect?

bakies 3mo ago
Self proclaimed Mecha-hitler powered by an illegal gas generator polluting low income neighborhoods
- gordonhart 3mo ago
  The gas generators powering the datacenter rented by both Google and Anthropic? Where is the moral stance against Gemini and Claude?
  - bakies 3mo ago
    In their respective threads
lykr0n 3mo ago
> factual things Grok model does wrong It convinced u/highmastdon to go out and be an elon musk dick rider. It also convinced them that "hid[ing] behind morality" is somehow a bad thing, which shows everyone the quality of person they are.
Lomlioto 3mo ago
I don't hide behind morality. This shows how different our values are, eh? I follow climate change, social unrest, philosophical question of good/bad, religions, beliefes etc. since i'm 12? I became a nihilist with 16. I have put my own life in danger at least twice to save another human. I read books and understood there messages like 1984, brave new world etc.

mparis 3mo ago

> I would imagine that our world would be better if more people would care if they see a Tesla and feel a little bit bad. Yes. I mean this question fairly as I am curious how you think about the trade-offs on the way to your moral choice. Not trying to manufacture a “gotcha” or anything. Based on your response, I am inferring and assuming that you think electric vehicles are a net positive for society when compared to internal-combustion-engine cars (I was afraid to type ICE as to not accidentally upset some other political dispositions). I am also assuming: - Tesla’s are high quality EVs - Tesla’s are amongst the most widely available and affordable EVs in the US, the worlds second largest car market Then a bit more speculative but I’d also argue that Tesla is somewhat responsible for bringing forth the EV transition around the world as I don’t think the other manufacturers would be there had it not been for Tesla going first (but who knows). And lastly would callout that Tesla is a large 20+ year old organization with thousands of people who have worked there and contributed to their success and proliferation of EVs. So, given all this. How do you consider the trade-offs that lead you to say that the moral choice is to shun Tesla as a whole because of the actions of a loud, politically-decisive CEO? At which level of political involvement does the CEOs actions weigh more than the collective contributions of the rest of the organization? What would you say if EV adoption as a whole takes a huge long-term hit because people stop buying the most well known EVs available in the US for political reasons? I do frown a bit when thinking that one man’s politics will cause a large tribe to change their actions in such a way that we fail to reach the end state that we claim to value. Essentially, I’m curious how you weigh “I really don’t like the CEOs politics” with “I more or less agree with the mission of the company” and how that leads you to your perspective on the moral choice. PS. I am not a shareholder of any musk properties, mostly because I avoid meme stocks, and do not nor have ever worked at his companies. In general, I feel pretty neutral towards the whole ordeal.

Lomlioto 3mo ago
I think Tesla got its fair share of success and and its now time to dismantel it because of Elon Musk. There are enough alternatives here. I'm highly disappointed that it has to be like this/should be like this, but it gives Elon Musk too much power which he uses to destroy even more. Also his missing character gives me worries for the future: Not only did he try to manipulate directly the demogracy in germany with going live with AfD, he now also ignorantly burns satelites in our atmosphere and no one is saying no or slow down. I find the level of Elon Musk followers nearly cult like and find it irritating that so many say "Elon Musk is not Tesla" despite the fact that he is the CEO and owns quite a lot of Tesla shares. All of this pressure should force Elon Musk to appologize and put him back in his place as a form of social opposition, but this clearly doesn't work

Demiurge 3mo ago

I came to this thread trying to understand the technical capabilities of this release and how it fits into the current competition. I want to see a discussion about this, but I can't find it, because every reply is like yours, about philosophy and morality. It's frustrating, because I can separate the physics and the philosophy when I examine something. I can be interested in understanding how a nuclear bomb works, and also never want to use it at the same time. I'm here to learn something new, and your philosophy or what kind of nerd you are is not something I wanted to learn. Do you understand? And yes, clearly I jumped into a pointless thread adding no new information of value. I am sorry to everyone about this. I'm just trying to plead with everyone reading my comment to take a step back, and let a thread about the technicalities stay on topic, and maybe just stay in the other thread about the mechahitler stuff. Thank you, if you do.

bakies 3mo ago
If you hit the [-] the whole thread gets hidden you can read the comments you're looking for while very easily ignoring this one and your morality
- Demiurge 3mo ago
  That's a great feature... I think I just collapsed 10 threads last night and gave up. I decided to refresh the page this morning, and found a new comment at the top that resonated with my experience last night.
Lomlioto 3mo ago
So we just let it go? No consequences anymore? No reminder of what Grok stands for? Lets forget eh?
- Demiurge 3mo ago
  No, you focus. Do you think you can focus on something other than mechahitler? Do you go to bathroom and can't poop because of Elon Musk?