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I totally agree! And I think you're right! Education should be free.

rbanffy 4mo ago
Another thing we can add is sealing grades. If you can’t use your grades as a credential, the incentive to cheat is reduced. This won’t solve the relation between getting a job and living - that’s a job for UBI and a comprehensive social security system.
- piloto_ciego 4mo ago
  Or, maybe we get rid of them. Like maybe the idea of having grades is kind of silly in the first place?
  - eudamoniac 4mo ago
    Free education and no grades with no business purpose already exists; it's called learning about things that interest you on your own time. I don't see why the taxpayer needs to pay for someone to do this.
    - piloto_ciego 4mo ago
      Then you're missing the point of higher education.
      - eudamoniac 4mo ago
        No, I understand the point of it, I just don't think it is worth the tens of thousands per person that it would cost to do it. I could accept a value argument for free university education in some form, but that form would not be for gradeless/credentialless unproductive studies. And it's not just that it would cost a lot, it's that it would cost a lot and a motivated person can already do a 90% job of it for free on their own.
        piloto_ciego 4mo ago
        who defines "unproductive?" You? That's the thing, like, there's not a whole hell of a lot I learned in Phil 201 that is directly applicable to my job, but, you know the class is valuable. I took art history in college. Turned into being one of the most important classes I ever took and I'm one of those stem major types. Productivity shouldn't be the point of education - you get productivity indirectly out of the education and search for knowledge, but if we want more data plumbers (which is largely what most of the programming I do for money on a regular basis is), I don't think we necessarily need to make certain that college is paying for them. I mean, think bigger - this new technology is going to be utterly transformative to our society and economic system. If we could actually approach some sort of reasonable post-scarcity world, what would we want it to be like? So, maybe there's grades, but it's "pass/fail" or something, but all of these metrics that we use to evaluate have become targets.
        eudamoniac 4mo ago
        You're going to have to make an argument for why the taxpayer needs to pay for every citizen to take art history beyond "it's valuable". Okay, but $20,000 is also valuable and there are opportunity costs.
        piloto_ciego 4mo ago
        No I'm not, you're the one who said, "unproductive stuff shouldn't get funded" - not me. I think we should fund all of it because well educated people should make better decisions in a democracy and I want the cross disciplinary effects that occur when people can freely study their passions. I'd say, "why shouldn't so-called unproductive stuff get funded?"
        eudamoniac 4mo ago
        You are the one who said all education should be free and you're also the one arguing for change. I already answered why this is a value judgment. Because money.
  - rbanffy 4mo ago
    Your grades tell you and your teachers how well you are doing. It's a useful feedback tool.
    - piloto_ciego 4mo ago
      It really isn't though, grade inflation is decidedly a thing.
      - rbanffy 4mo ago
        It is a useful measurement. It won’t allow you to compare beyond a short horizon, but it’s useful to gauge your own progress.
        piloto_ciego 4mo ago
        Maybe make them sealed? Or you’re only allowed to see your grade during the clads? Regardless, I never found grades all that useful in college because I had so many classes where either there were like 3 tests and that was it? Or the homework was nothing like the tests.

Another thing we can add is sealing grades. If you can’t use your grades as a credential, the incentive to cheat is reduced. This won’t solve the relation between getting a job and living - that’s a job for UBI and a comprehensive social security system.

piloto_ciego 4mo ago
Or, maybe we get rid of them. Like maybe the idea of having grades is kind of silly in the first place?
- eudamoniac 4mo ago
  Free education and no grades with no business purpose already exists; it's called learning about things that interest you on your own time. I don't see why the taxpayer needs to pay for someone to do this.
  - piloto_ciego 4mo ago
    Then you're missing the point of higher education.
    - eudamoniac 4mo ago
      No, I understand the point of it, I just don't think it is worth the tens of thousands per person that it would cost to do it. I could accept a value argument for free university education in some form, but that form would not be for gradeless/credentialless unproductive studies. And it's not just that it would cost a lot, it's that it would cost a lot and a motivated person can already do a 90% job of it for free on their own.
      - piloto_ciego 4mo ago
        who defines "unproductive?" You? That's the thing, like, there's not a whole hell of a lot I learned in Phil 201 that is directly applicable to my job, but, you know the class is valuable. I took art history in college. Turned into being one of the most important classes I ever took and I'm one of those stem major types. Productivity shouldn't be the point of education - you get productivity indirectly out of the education and search for knowledge, but if we want more data plumbers (which is largely what most of the programming I do for money on a regular basis is), I don't think we necessarily need to make certain that college is paying for them. I mean, think bigger - this new technology is going to be utterly transformative to our society and economic system. If we could actually approach some sort of reasonable post-scarcity world, what would we want it to be like? So, maybe there's grades, but it's "pass/fail" or something, but all of these metrics that we use to evaluate have become targets.
        eudamoniac 4mo ago
        You're going to have to make an argument for why the taxpayer needs to pay for every citizen to take art history beyond "it's valuable". Okay, but $20,000 is also valuable and there are opportunity costs.
        piloto_ciego 4mo ago
        No I'm not, you're the one who said, "unproductive stuff shouldn't get funded" - not me. I think we should fund all of it because well educated people should make better decisions in a democracy and I want the cross disciplinary effects that occur when people can freely study their passions. I'd say, "why shouldn't so-called unproductive stuff get funded?"
        eudamoniac 4mo ago
        You are the one who said all education should be free and you're also the one arguing for change. I already answered why this is a value judgment. Because money.
- rbanffy 4mo ago
  Your grades tell you and your teachers how well you are doing. It's a useful feedback tool.
  - piloto_ciego 4mo ago
    It really isn't though, grade inflation is decidedly a thing.
    - rbanffy 4mo ago
      It is a useful measurement. It won’t allow you to compare beyond a short horizon, but it’s useful to gauge your own progress.
      - piloto_ciego 4mo ago
        Maybe make them sealed? Or you’re only allowed to see your grade during the clads? Regardless, I never found grades all that useful in college because I had so many classes where either there were like 3 tests and that was it? Or the homework was nothing like the tests.