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I remember taking pay cuts of 35-65% for a few jobs I thought sounded more cool or less stressful when I was younger, only to find out some of my coworkers were

I remember taking pay cuts of 35-65% for a few jobs I thought sounded more cool or less stressful when I was younger, only to find out some of my coworkers were making far more at the same place. They placed me still at or above the median wage, and I learned a lot (I never vested, and stocks weren't a factor in the jobs). In my personal experience, the jobs I have taken which paid less treated me as cheaper and more disposable. This is not to say all companies are like this, and indeed many do value tech employees they could not afford otherwise more, but making a blanket statement about any pay figure is sort of a bad idea. The FAANG workplace environment is something you will pay for. There are reasons it pays well, and I never really understood this until I left. I do not mean merely 'doing your job'. As for the last part of your reply, I am guessing it was meant to get reactionary replies (touché).

nixon_why69 4mo ago
Is it possible that the causation is the other way? FAANG doesn't pay well because its dispiriting and toxic, its toxic because it pays well. This attracts all sorts of behavior. I mean, it paid well in the early-mid 2010s also and was way less toxic.
- jakevoytko 4mo ago
  Out of curiosity, what has changed over time that has made it more toxic? I left Google in 2015. It certainly had its share of toxic traits, but it was at the "what place doesn't?" level.
  - nixon_why69 4mo ago
    My feeling was multiple generations of optimizing for promo packets had made the entire culture cynical at G and Amazon. It's one thing when people give lip service to the right things but sometimes the wrong things are rewarded. It hits another level when leaders are actively coaching and advocating cynicism. Throw in layoff fear on top of that and now it's a political mess.
    - jambalaya8 3mo ago
      Mmm. The way users are talked about at web and software companies now is almost nothing like 20-30 years ago. Aside from a few times when things got a bit too annoying (like maybe a few hours every month or so) I barely remember the negativity at all. We almost never talked about users, just the product. There was wayyy less cynicism and anger in the workplace.
vjvjvjvjghv 4mo ago
“ In my personal experience, the jobs I have taken which paid less treated me as cheaper and more disposable. ” That’s my experience. The more I have made in my career, the better and with more respect I got treated. As freelance I did some projects with non profit “do gooders”. They didn’t pay well and treated people horribly. On the other hand, successful companies will treat you well and pay well.
- wojciii 4mo ago
  I worked for all kinds of companies. They all treated me as a disposable resource. There is no difference beyond the amount of money they pay me. This is in Scandinavia so that might be different from what you experience in your part of our world.
tasuki 4mo ago
Perhaps you just didn't push it far enough: I took a 90% pay cut and am happy with it :)
- Muromec 4mo ago
  The happiest a was when our entire team was laid off and my whole balance was 10k dollars and I went on to live off that from r a year and a half in Thailand.
  - jambalaya8 4mo ago
    That must have been a long time ago. When I lived abroad and was going for cheap, since I was so damned burnt out, most of the people who did not manage to totally convince locals to treat them like a local paid way more for things like rent (though still very cheap by American standards). I mean, you could find cheaper places, but I wouldn't expect not to pay for it in other ways. I mean unless you were just sort of roaming around, couch surfing (easier a couple decades ago, before AirB&B got so popular probably). The most I could imagine ten thousand lasting, even scrounging, anywhere I lived, was probably around half a year at most (much less if rent was not factored in, or if you are sharing a place of course; I was not). That'd mostly include parts of Asia, and Central America. And most places like that, connectivity came at sort of a premium price. The internet between a vps in the states and southeast asia was damn slow fifteen years ago. Couldn't have been too fun when that ten thou ran out. I would never have left the country with no modicum of a guarantee of income upon returning. Gutsy move.
    - Muromec 4mo ago
      It was some time ago (2012), and the rent on Ko Pa was less than 500 USD I believe. I'm not sure how much more expensive it is now, but cheap places are cheap.
      - jambalaya8 3mo ago
        Yeah, I was operating on the idea of a Southeast Asian or Central American range of around $500-650ish a month rent depending on the size (these are like prices from a decade, decade and a half ago, no clue how much they have changed just sure they did not go down). For sure a lot of places were better and cost more though still cheap by American or EU standards. But you still need clothes, food, utilities, fun, basic essentials, money to get from place to place, and some padding for an emergency, etc. And the cheaper places, you would be competing with locals. $10k a year to them was and often is a lot. And if you were local it would be for you also since you would have local connections and family etc. You would not live as an American would, though. The part about living on that $10k was not so much what threw me (I mean, you CAN live on $1k a month, and I know people did it, certainly back in 2012, but you are not going to be eating much Western food, or springing for many extravagances like Western brand liquors, probably). What threw me was how, halfway or 2/3rds of the way through that year, without that ongoing idea of replacing that $1k a month, anything going wrong would seriously suck. Locals work and replace spent money with money. So do expats.

nixon_why69 4mo ago

Is it possible that the causation is the other way? FAANG doesn't pay well because its dispiriting and toxic, its toxic because it pays well. This attracts all sorts of behavior. I mean, it paid well in the early-mid 2010s also and was way less toxic.

jakevoytko 4mo ago
Out of curiosity, what has changed over time that has made it more toxic? I left Google in 2015. It certainly had its share of toxic traits, but it was at the "what place doesn't?" level.
- nixon_why69 4mo ago
  My feeling was multiple generations of optimizing for promo packets had made the entire culture cynical at G and Amazon. It's one thing when people give lip service to the right things but sometimes the wrong things are rewarded. It hits another level when leaders are actively coaching and advocating cynicism. Throw in layoff fear on top of that and now it's a political mess.
  - jambalaya8 3mo ago
    Mmm. The way users are talked about at web and software companies now is almost nothing like 20-30 years ago. Aside from a few times when things got a bit too annoying (like maybe a few hours every month or so) I barely remember the negativity at all. We almost never talked about users, just the product. There was wayyy less cynicism and anger in the workplace.

vjvjvjvjghv 4mo ago

“ In my personal experience, the jobs I have taken which paid less treated me as cheaper and more disposable. ” That’s my experience. The more I have made in my career, the better and with more respect I got treated. As freelance I did some projects with non profit “do gooders”. They didn’t pay well and treated people horribly. On the other hand, successful companies will treat you well and pay well.

wojciii 4mo ago
I worked for all kinds of companies. They all treated me as a disposable resource. There is no difference beyond the amount of money they pay me. This is in Scandinavia so that might be different from what you experience in your part of our world.

tasuki 4mo ago

Perhaps you just didn't push it far enough: I took a 90% pay cut and am happy with it :)

Muromec 4mo ago
The happiest a was when our entire team was laid off and my whole balance was 10k dollars and I went on to live off that from r a year and a half in Thailand.
- jambalaya8 4mo ago
  That must have been a long time ago. When I lived abroad and was going for cheap, since I was so damned burnt out, most of the people who did not manage to totally convince locals to treat them like a local paid way more for things like rent (though still very cheap by American standards). I mean, you could find cheaper places, but I wouldn't expect not to pay for it in other ways. I mean unless you were just sort of roaming around, couch surfing (easier a couple decades ago, before AirB&B got so popular probably). The most I could imagine ten thousand lasting, even scrounging, anywhere I lived, was probably around half a year at most (much less if rent was not factored in, or if you are sharing a place of course; I was not). That'd mostly include parts of Asia, and Central America. And most places like that, connectivity came at sort of a premium price. The internet between a vps in the states and southeast asia was damn slow fifteen years ago. Couldn't have been too fun when that ten thou ran out. I would never have left the country with no modicum of a guarantee of income upon returning. Gutsy move.
  - Muromec 4mo ago
    It was some time ago (2012), and the rent on Ko Pa was less than 500 USD I believe. I'm not sure how much more expensive it is now, but cheap places are cheap.
    - jambalaya8 3mo ago
      Yeah, I was operating on the idea of a Southeast Asian or Central American range of around $500-650ish a month rent depending on the size (these are like prices from a decade, decade and a half ago, no clue how much they have changed just sure they did not go down). For sure a lot of places were better and cost more though still cheap by American or EU standards. But you still need clothes, food, utilities, fun, basic essentials, money to get from place to place, and some padding for an emergency, etc. And the cheaper places, you would be competing with locals. $10k a year to them was and often is a lot. And if you were local it would be for you also since you would have local connections and family etc. You would not live as an American would, though. The part about living on that $10k was not so much what threw me (I mean, you CAN live on $1k a month, and I know people did it, certainly back in 2012, but you are not going to be eating much Western food, or springing for many extravagances like Western brand liquors, probably). What threw me was how, halfway or 2/3rds of the way through that year, without that ongoing idea of replacing that $1k a month, anything going wrong would seriously suck. Locals work and replace spent money with money. So do expats.