5 ms·

It is. I think the professor here was being naive, but I appreciate his optimism. When I was in college (in the 90s), take home exams allowed a knowledgeable st

by raddan 3mo ago

It is. I think the professor here was being naive, but I appreciate his optimism. When I was in college (in the 90s), take home exams allowed a knowledgeable student to really shine. I’m not saying that they weren’t eminently cheatable back then—they were—but they also had the odd side-effect that, if it was a class you cared about, the test itself could be a learning experience. For context, I am also a faculty member at a highly selective college. I had a similar shocking realization last year that it was likely that there was widespread cheating on homework assignments, which I used to favor heavily toward their grades. To verify my suspicions, I generated custom tests for every student in the class: the exam included code from students’ own programming assignment submissions. All I asked them to do was explain what they wrote. The class performed badly on this exam, and the results were strongly bimodal. Roughly half the class aced the exam. The other half could make neither heads nor tails out of the code. For the students who wrote things like “lol, i have no idea” (real response) I opened honor cases. I think many faculty right now are going through the stages of grief. We all knew that even at selective institutions, cheating existed, that many students were in it for the credentials. But as long as the numbers of known cases was low, we could convince ourselves that the few doing it were outliers. When a class does it en masse, it’s more than a slap in the face; it makes you feel like a chump. Have we been fooling ourselves this entire time? Was all the time I spent becoming a subject-matter expert a waste? Are the students just rolling their eyes when I turn my back? Those thoughts hurt. I personally chose to become a faculty member because it seemed like research and teaching were the best ways to maximize my impact. I still have some hope. After all, I still spend my days working and socializing with like-minded thinkers, some of whom are truly brilliant. And every year, a handful of students come out of the woodwork and surprise me. But it’s hard not to think that the group of people who find joy in learning and creating is shrinking.

b112 3mo ago
But it’s hard not to think that the group of people who find joy in learning and creating is shrinking. I'm not sure you should think it is shrinking. There are a lot of people in this world that hate to learn, and literally are incredibly apathetic about any topic. To such, learning anything is work, never a joy. Before AI they had to learn to succeed. Now they see a shortcut. You said half showed they were learning, that's not so bad. I think you should be glad it's that high. I am.
cm2012 3mo ago
For most people, college is a box to check off. And individual classes are even more so.
- danpalmer 3mo ago
  College is a box to check off because we have lost the ability to support a workforce without college degrees (at least in the US, UK, AU, where I have some experience). Trades are critical but looked down on. Manufacturing is gone (which isn't in itself a bad thing). The service industry doesn't pay a living wage (thankfully it's reasonable here in AU). Apprenticeships don't pay enough. And pretty much all knowledge work jobs expect a degree from the beginning at a junior level. We should be planning for a system where <20% of people go to university, instead of expecting >60% to go. Robust minimum wages, good trade schools, apprenticeships that pay enough for a wide range of roles, and changing the culture to not look down on folks that take these paths.
  - phist_mcgee 3mo ago
    Sounds like you're in AU, I will point out that trades are not looked down on at all in this country. In fact culturally we value chippies and sparkies higher than desk jockeys.
    - raddan 3mo ago
      As a non-Australian I just have to know what “chippies” and “sparkies” are!
      - perilunar 3mo ago
        Chippy = carpenter (from wood chips) Sparky = electrician
        BenjiWiebe 3mo ago
        If you see chips where a chippy is working, that's fine. If you see sparks where a sparky is working, get a different sparky. :)
silver_silver 3mo ago
My experience as a student has always been that most of the class will cheat given the chance. I remember in high school being one of maybe a dozen in a grade of over 200 who actually read the assigned novels. Everyone else used cliff/spark notes not just to familiarise themselves but also to plagiarise essays.
bmacho 3mo ago
> It is. I think the professor here was being naive, but I appreciate his optimism. When I was in college (in the 90s), take home exams allowed a knowledgeable student to really shine. I’m not saying that they weren’t eminently cheatable back then—they were—but they also had the odd side-effect that, if it was a class you cared about, the test itself could be a learning experience. I've never realized it before, but this is so true. Take home exams (or graded homeworks) allowed me to pour so much time in subjects I enjoyed, that I wouldn't have done otherwise.

by raddan 3mo ago

b112 3mo ago

But it’s hard not to think that the group of people who find joy in learning and creating is shrinking. I'm not sure you should think it is shrinking. There are a lot of people in this world that hate to learn, and literally are incredibly apathetic about any topic. To such, learning anything is work, never a joy. Before AI they had to learn to succeed. Now they see a shortcut. You said half showed they were learning, that's not so bad. I think you should be glad it's that high. I am.

cm2012 3mo ago

For most people, college is a box to check off. And individual classes are even more so.

danpalmer 3mo ago
College is a box to check off because we have lost the ability to support a workforce without college degrees (at least in the US, UK, AU, where I have some experience). Trades are critical but looked down on. Manufacturing is gone (which isn't in itself a bad thing). The service industry doesn't pay a living wage (thankfully it's reasonable here in AU). Apprenticeships don't pay enough. And pretty much all knowledge work jobs expect a degree from the beginning at a junior level. We should be planning for a system where <20% of people go to university, instead of expecting >60% to go. Robust minimum wages, good trade schools, apprenticeships that pay enough for a wide range of roles, and changing the culture to not look down on folks that take these paths.
- phist_mcgee 3mo ago
  Sounds like you're in AU, I will point out that trades are not looked down on at all in this country. In fact culturally we value chippies and sparkies higher than desk jockeys.
  - raddan 3mo ago
    As a non-Australian I just have to know what “chippies” and “sparkies” are!
    - perilunar 3mo ago
      Chippy = carpenter (from wood chips) Sparky = electrician
      - BenjiWiebe 3mo ago
        If you see chips where a chippy is working, that's fine. If you see sparks where a sparky is working, get a different sparky. :)

silver_silver 3mo ago

My experience as a student has always been that most of the class will cheat given the chance. I remember in high school being one of maybe a dozen in a grade of over 200 who actually read the assigned novels. Everyone else used cliff/spark notes not just to familiarise themselves but also to plagiarise essays.

bmacho 3mo ago

> It is. I think the professor here was being naive, but I appreciate his optimism. When I was in college (in the 90s), take home exams allowed a knowledgeable student to really shine. I’m not saying that they weren’t eminently cheatable back then—they were—but they also had the odd side-effect that, if it was a class you cared about, the test itself could be a learning experience. I've never realized it before, but this is so true. Take home exams (or graded homeworks) allowed me to pour so much time in subjects I enjoyed, that I wouldn't have done otherwise.