3 ms·

I'm not interested supporting in anyone who is willing to build on stolen property just so that we can accelerate enshittification and damage the environment. W

by ori_b 3mo ago

I'm not interested supporting in anyone who is willing to build on stolen property just so that we can accelerate enshittification and damage the environment. When the AI companies pay artists for their training material, stop building gas pipelines directly to data centers, and work on putting UBI in place before they try to replace all white collar labour, it may be worth revisiting. There's a reason that believing AI is bringing a better world is a more fringe position than believing in telekinesis. The AI companies are strip-mining the commons, and leaving the world worse off for it. Edit: it's interesting watching the votes on this bounce up and down between the people inside and outside of the pro-ai fringe react.

Centigonal 3mo ago
Good luck! The world needs more rms types (specifically referring to people who adhere strongly to moral principles over expedience)
- adwn 3mo ago
  Are you sure about "rms types" specifically? Stallman is very ineffective in his proselytization, owing to his complete refusal of any kind of compromise or concession to dissenting positions. This stance may keep your soul pure and righteous, but it won't bring you one millimeter closer to your objectives.
  - Centigonal 3mo ago
    Yes, I am. I think Chatto looks great, and I use AI in my job every single day. I've been following OpenAI since MuseNet. I'm uncomfortable about the coming Kuznets curve for AI, the wealth concentrating effects, the energy use, the stunting effects on human intelligence and connection, and the abuse of training data associated with AI. I am that "let's take a nuanced approach and find out how we can get most of the good without most of the bad" person. I think people like me are probably the majority stance when it comes to AI use among tech people. I also think that we'll be steamrolled by moneyed interests and society-level incentives in the short term, and I don't really see a way around that. In the absence of a way to win with nuance, I think it's just nice to have people walking around who live rigidly by their principles as an example of what is possible.
bluerooibos 3mo ago
Would you say copying and finding solutions on Stackoverflow is building on stolen property? I'm no fan of AI companies, but I fail to see how people using it to build open-source software is a bad thing.
- ori_b 3mo ago
  Are the solutions on stackoverflow licensed in a way that allows people to use them that way? Is this true for AI training data?
- OtomotO 3mo ago
  Depends on whether the answer o. Stackoverflow was given willingly or at gunpoint ^^
anonym29 3mo ago
How do you feel about open weight models, and fully open source models (all data, training scripts/recipies, and model weights all open source)?
- ori_b 3mo ago
  I'm not aware of any advanced models with full training data available, let alone available with paid licenses for the training data. The process of training and using them is also not likely to be any better than commercial models. 23% of Ireland's power is going to data centers, spreading that among less efficient hardware in less efficient setups is unlikely to be better, unless the models are so bad nobody uses them. And I'm also not aware of anyone working on these models trying to reduce the social damage they are going to do.
  - anonym29 3mo ago
    >I'm not aware of any models with full training data available, let alone available with full licensing. Check out the OLMo family from the Allen Institute for AI: https://allenai.org/blog/olmo3 https://allenai.org/blog/olmo3 Also worth looking at EleutherAI, LLM360, SmolLM, Apertus. Apterus even respects opt-out notices in their collection of the dataset they distribute. KL3M from Kelvin Legal is even trained on a 100% copyright-free legal/governmental corpus. >23% of Ireland's power is going to data centers This isn't even a rounding error in terms of global energy usage. Besides, renewable energy is cheaper than non-renewable energy now. Energy demand itself directly drives the deployment of renewable energy. Needing more electricity in a capitalist country literally causes the energy mix to become more green over time. >And I'm also not aware of anyone working on these models trying to reduce the social damage they are going to do. Is it fair to account for the social damage without accounting for the social good, like the unprecedented democratization not just of mere information, but knowledge and understanding itself, around the world? Think about how many deaths will be avoided, how many billions or trillions of years of human life will be gained over time, all of the people that gain access to a personalized, individually tailored tutor for any subject on earth, all of the medical and legal advances, etc.
subhobroto 3mo ago
> anyone who is willing to build on stolen property just so that we can accelerate enshittification and damage the environment Others have made solid arguments(Stackoverflow, open weight models, and fully open source models) - but I encourage you to study the ecosystem post War II and the 1970's Silicon Valley, especially how the semiconductor companies "innovated". The tiny little MOSFETs you're employing to read this are all built on stolen IP. As someone famous said, good artists copy; great artists steal.
- customguy 3mo ago
  > The tiny little MOSFETs you're employing to read this are all built on stolen IP. The alternative to an LLM typing code is a human typing the code. What is the alternative to microchips? > As someone famous said, good artists copy; great artists steal. And people who could not be further from artists, or even art enjoyers, think stealing makes them artists, too. Because they're that far removed from art, or any grace, really. Which doesn't go against OP or the project, which I find delightful. Although I generally share many reservations of "AI critics", I'm also a starved: if it's snappier and uses less resources than something humans coded, come right in! At least if it's a neat thing like this seems to be, and not some sprawling trojan horse with code that "works" but looks terrible... machine optimized stuff that is opaque to and not made for humans need not apply. I'd bet 99% of overall token usage has nothing lasting to show for it, and of the 1% that actually compound into anything 99% are nothing like this. So just like a broken clock can be right twice a day, a super correct soldier of Butler can hold fire twice a day, no?
  - jazzyjackson 3mo ago
    vacuum tubes : MOSFETS :: human coders : LLMs
    - ori_b 3mo ago
      You mean human office workers, no? If you want a modicum more job security, get hired to deliver packages for Amazon.
  - 3mo ago
ksec 3mo ago
So we are at a stage where AGPL 3.0 is not enough and using AI assisted coding is considered evil?
monkeywork 3mo ago
your comment sounds like your the type to say you won't buy a house in North America cause its stolen land...
- ori_b 3mo ago
  Exactly. As long as they benefit in the short term, who cares about the damage done? Who knows, maybe you'll end up making enough money to avoid any future consequences, too. Good luck with that.
- apsurd 3mo ago
  You're convincing me to side with this ori_b here. I knee-jerked downvoted their initial take because it reads as ineffective. boycotts just concentrate the energy of the other side even more. If anything we need more participation across the spectrum to shape what isn't going away. But reading the discussion, deliberate advocacy and taking a stance counts too. Um yeah, there is a problem with profiting from real-estate-go-up willful-ignorance.
kajika91 3mo ago
Glad to see people trying to talk sense in this community but the AI chill here is very strong. Reminds me of the proud "we should go back to our military-industrial root". Also funny how it's always about "the smartest guy I ever met" impliyng other dev aren't that smart. There are easily tens of thousands of devs who are way above anyone's here level but there are coding OS module, GNU tooling or other less shining stuff, or there are not American enough. It's tiring to see the usual corp slop : github, twitter or blue sky, vibe coding, etc. Then see the complain years latter than the product was "enshitified", all was there from the beginning. Think about the real FOSS software (GNU tooling, ffmpeg, Godot, codeberg/forgejo) to see long term software than work and carry all this money-makimg mess. As for chatto the dependency mountain is a red flag to me, this is asking for problem in my opinion, were talking primarily about sending text here.
teleforce 3mo ago
Stealing ideas, intellectual property (IP), etc are happening throughout the age of the human civilization, that does not prevent us as human moving forward. That's why there's little to no credit given to Muslim scholars (Arabic, Persian, Moorish Spain, etc) by the western scholars, by conveniently dismissing the Muslim golden era as "Dark Ages" but at the same time stealing the knowledge (idea, equations design, tools, etc) for most of the prior inventions by the Muslim scholars, for example the telescope. Even worse not only the knowledge (ideas, design, equations, tools, etc) in science, engineering and technology were blatantly copied and stolen, no credit is properly given to these Muslim scholars contributions by saying that the Muslim scholars at best were just merely translating the Greek scholars works and ideas [1]. I suspect that Newton also blatantly copied the many great works by al-Haitham (Alhazen) but not giving him proper credits [2]. C'est la vie, and life goes on. [1] Islamic Astronomy and Copernicus: https://www.tuba.gov.tr/files/yayinlar/bilim-ve-dusun/TUBA-978-625-8352-02-3.pdf https://www.tuba.gov.tr/files/yayinlar/bilim-ve-dusun/TUBA-9... [2] Ibn al-Haytham (Alhazen): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_al-Haytham https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_al-Haytham
- brigandish 3mo ago
  Firstly, there is a difference between a telescope and the prior advances that led to a telescope being invented. The telescope was not invented by a muslim scholar, hence that being why no one gives credit to one of them for that. Secondly, to this claim: > That's why there's little to no credit given to Muslim scholars (Arabic, Persian, Moorish Spain, etc) by the western scholars, by conveniently dismissing the Muslim golden era as "Dark Ages" but at the same time stealing the knowledge (idea, equations design, tools, etc) for most of the prior inventions by the Muslim scholars, for example the telescope. From the link you provided, in the very first paragraph: > The works of Alhazen were frequently cited during the Scientific Revolution by Galileo Galilei, René Descartes, Johannes Kepler, and Christiaan Huygens. No credit or frequent credit - which is it?
  - teleforce 3mo ago
    >No credit or frequent credit - which is it? >>there's little to no credit given to Muslim scholars

by ori_b 3mo ago

Centigonal 3mo ago

Good luck! The world needs more rms types (specifically referring to people who adhere strongly to moral principles over expedience)

adwn 3mo ago
Are you sure about "rms types" specifically? Stallman is very ineffective in his proselytization, owing to his complete refusal of any kind of compromise or concession to dissenting positions. This stance may keep your soul pure and righteous, but it won't bring you one millimeter closer to your objectives.
- Centigonal 3mo ago
  Yes, I am. I think Chatto looks great, and I use AI in my job every single day. I've been following OpenAI since MuseNet. I'm uncomfortable about the coming Kuznets curve for AI, the wealth concentrating effects, the energy use, the stunting effects on human intelligence and connection, and the abuse of training data associated with AI. I am that "let's take a nuanced approach and find out how we can get most of the good without most of the bad" person. I think people like me are probably the majority stance when it comes to AI use among tech people. I also think that we'll be steamrolled by moneyed interests and society-level incentives in the short term, and I don't really see a way around that. In the absence of a way to win with nuance, I think it's just nice to have people walking around who live rigidly by their principles as an example of what is possible.

bluerooibos 3mo ago

Would you say copying and finding solutions on Stackoverflow is building on stolen property? I'm no fan of AI companies, but I fail to see how people using it to build open-source software is a bad thing.

ori_b 3mo ago
Are the solutions on stackoverflow licensed in a way that allows people to use them that way? Is this true for AI training data?
OtomotO 3mo ago
Depends on whether the answer o. Stackoverflow was given willingly or at gunpoint ^^

anonym29 3mo ago

How do you feel about open weight models, and fully open source models (all data, training scripts/recipies, and model weights all open source)?

ori_b 3mo ago
I'm not aware of any advanced models with full training data available, let alone available with paid licenses for the training data. The process of training and using them is also not likely to be any better than commercial models. 23% of Ireland's power is going to data centers, spreading that among less efficient hardware in less efficient setups is unlikely to be better, unless the models are so bad nobody uses them. And I'm also not aware of anyone working on these models trying to reduce the social damage they are going to do.
- anonym29 3mo ago
  >I'm not aware of any models with full training data available, let alone available with full licensing. Check out the OLMo family from the Allen Institute for AI: https://allenai.org/blog/olmo3 https://allenai.org/blog/olmo3 Also worth looking at EleutherAI, LLM360, SmolLM, Apertus. Apterus even respects opt-out notices in their collection of the dataset they distribute. KL3M from Kelvin Legal is even trained on a 100% copyright-free legal/governmental corpus. >23% of Ireland's power is going to data centers This isn't even a rounding error in terms of global energy usage. Besides, renewable energy is cheaper than non-renewable energy now. Energy demand itself directly drives the deployment of renewable energy. Needing more electricity in a capitalist country literally causes the energy mix to become more green over time. >And I'm also not aware of anyone working on these models trying to reduce the social damage they are going to do. Is it fair to account for the social damage without accounting for the social good, like the unprecedented democratization not just of mere information, but knowledge and understanding itself, around the world? Think about how many deaths will be avoided, how many billions or trillions of years of human life will be gained over time, all of the people that gain access to a personalized, individually tailored tutor for any subject on earth, all of the medical and legal advances, etc.

subhobroto 3mo ago

> anyone who is willing to build on stolen property just so that we can accelerate enshittification and damage the environment Others have made solid arguments(Stackoverflow, open weight models, and fully open source models) - but I encourage you to study the ecosystem post War II and the 1970's Silicon Valley, especially how the semiconductor companies "innovated". The tiny little MOSFETs you're employing to read this are all built on stolen IP. As someone famous said, good artists copy; great artists steal.

customguy 3mo ago
> The tiny little MOSFETs you're employing to read this are all built on stolen IP. The alternative to an LLM typing code is a human typing the code. What is the alternative to microchips? > As someone famous said, good artists copy; great artists steal. And people who could not be further from artists, or even art enjoyers, think stealing makes them artists, too. Because they're that far removed from art, or any grace, really. Which doesn't go against OP or the project, which I find delightful. Although I generally share many reservations of "AI critics", I'm also a starved: if it's snappier and uses less resources than something humans coded, come right in! At least if it's a neat thing like this seems to be, and not some sprawling trojan horse with code that "works" but looks terrible... machine optimized stuff that is opaque to and not made for humans need not apply. I'd bet 99% of overall token usage has nothing lasting to show for it, and of the 1% that actually compound into anything 99% are nothing like this. So just like a broken clock can be right twice a day, a super correct soldier of Butler can hold fire twice a day, no?
- jazzyjackson 3mo ago
  vacuum tubes : MOSFETS :: human coders : LLMs
  - ori_b 3mo ago
    You mean human office workers, no? If you want a modicum more job security, get hired to deliver packages for Amazon.
- 3mo ago

ksec 3mo ago

So we are at a stage where AGPL 3.0 is not enough and using AI assisted coding is considered evil?

monkeywork 3mo ago

your comment sounds like your the type to say you won't buy a house in North America cause its stolen land...

ori_b 3mo ago
Exactly. As long as they benefit in the short term, who cares about the damage done? Who knows, maybe you'll end up making enough money to avoid any future consequences, too. Good luck with that.
apsurd 3mo ago
You're convincing me to side with this ori_b here. I knee-jerked downvoted their initial take because it reads as ineffective. boycotts just concentrate the energy of the other side even more. If anything we need more participation across the spectrum to shape what isn't going away. But reading the discussion, deliberate advocacy and taking a stance counts too. Um yeah, there is a problem with profiting from real-estate-go-up willful-ignorance.

kajika91 3mo ago

Glad to see people trying to talk sense in this community but the AI chill here is very strong. Reminds me of the proud "we should go back to our military-industrial root". Also funny how it's always about "the smartest guy I ever met" impliyng other dev aren't that smart. There are easily tens of thousands of devs who are way above anyone's here level but there are coding OS module, GNU tooling or other less shining stuff, or there are not American enough. It's tiring to see the usual corp slop : github, twitter or blue sky, vibe coding, etc. Then see the complain years latter than the product was "enshitified", all was there from the beginning. Think about the real FOSS software (GNU tooling, ffmpeg, Godot, codeberg/forgejo) to see long term software than work and carry all this money-makimg mess. As for chatto the dependency mountain is a red flag to me, this is asking for problem in my opinion, were talking primarily about sending text here.

teleforce 3mo ago

Stealing ideas, intellectual property (IP), etc are happening throughout the age of the human civilization, that does not prevent us as human moving forward. That's why there's little to no credit given to Muslim scholars (Arabic, Persian, Moorish Spain, etc) by the western scholars, by conveniently dismissing the Muslim golden era as "Dark Ages" but at the same time stealing the knowledge (idea, equations design, tools, etc) for most of the prior inventions by the Muslim scholars, for example the telescope. Even worse not only the knowledge (ideas, design, equations, tools, etc) in science, engineering and technology were blatantly copied and stolen, no credit is properly given to these Muslim scholars contributions by saying that the Muslim scholars at best were just merely translating the Greek scholars works and ideas [1]. I suspect that Newton also blatantly copied the many great works by al-Haitham (Alhazen) but not giving him proper credits [2]. C'est la vie, and life goes on. [1] Islamic Astronomy and Copernicus: https://www.tuba.gov.tr/files/yayinlar/bilim-ve-dusun/TUBA-978-625-8352-02-3.pdf https://www.tuba.gov.tr/files/yayinlar/bilim-ve-dusun/TUBA-9... [2] Ibn al-Haytham (Alhazen): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_al-Haytham https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_al-Haytham

brigandish 3mo ago
Firstly, there is a difference between a telescope and the prior advances that led to a telescope being invented. The telescope was not invented by a muslim scholar, hence that being why no one gives credit to one of them for that. Secondly, to this claim: > That's why there's little to no credit given to Muslim scholars (Arabic, Persian, Moorish Spain, etc) by the western scholars, by conveniently dismissing the Muslim golden era as "Dark Ages" but at the same time stealing the knowledge (idea, equations design, tools, etc) for most of the prior inventions by the Muslim scholars, for example the telescope. From the link you provided, in the very first paragraph: > The works of Alhazen were frequently cited during the Scientific Revolution by Galileo Galilei, René Descartes, Johannes Kepler, and Christiaan Huygens. No credit or frequent credit - which is it?
- teleforce 3mo ago
  >No credit or frequent credit - which is it? >>there's little to no credit given to Muslim scholars