3 ms·

I'd say it's true. They chose to not implement SMP until consumer CPUs surprised them by going multi thread. And obsd has no Bluetooth, right? A pretty big sub

by knorker 3mo ago

I'd say it's true. They chose to not implement SMP until consumer CPUs surprised them by going multi thread. And obsd has no Bluetooth, right? A pretty big subsystem to drop because security.

somat 3mo ago
And as a counter example here you have openbsd "we are going to install a bgp daemon on every single device, because you never know when you may need one" I am not complaining, I like the feeling that I could single handedly rebuild the internet using only what is found in an openbsd base install. But wow, considering the size there is a lot in there. They definitely punch above their weight.
- knorker 3mo ago
  It's not a counter example to give examples of what does exist. And it's not like the BGP daemon is on by default. That'd be dumb. You could equally say that any Ubuntu system has equally many steps to turn on a BGP daemon, starting with `apt install frr`. I sure hope openbsd's BGPd doesn't have any suid binaries. And if it doesn't, well that might just as well be a vacation photo instead of a binary for all the "code" it is. I agree that they're punching above their weight, but I would also say that they are falling more and more behind. 25 years ago they were more at par in what use cases they can address, and its performance. But now it's almost retro computing. And it's fine! If you really only need a bog standard webserver, or router/firewall, then that's the use case and it solves your problem. And solves the problem without baggage. I wouldn't use it for storage, though, since running a non-checksumming filesystem nowadays is a bit of a joke. (let's not get into btrfs. I acknowledge its history, but checksumming is not backups, and backups address the historical btrfs problems while not addressing at all the checksumming)
gunapologist99 3mo ago
But Bluetooth is basically a giant blast of security vulnerabilities. On the consumer side, yes, it's a big subsystem to drop, but on the server side, it's a little bit different! I'm not an OpenBSD expert, but seems like you should be able to pass BT through USB and then do that in a subsystem or an isolated environment like a VM.
- mikem170 3mo ago
  > you should be able to pass BT through USB I use a Creative BT-W2 bluetooth usb dongle. Small and has a button on it for pairing. OpenBSD sees it as a normal audio device.
- skydhash 3mo ago
  The Bluetooth spec is horrendous, and from what I read, the hardware is equally horrifying. Bluettoth is a wireless bus, not one class a device and an implementation would need to provide hooks to the other subsystems like wscons (keyboard and mouse), audio and network. OpenBSD does not have kernel modules, so it’s either in or not.
  - gucci-on-fleek 3mo ago
    > The Bluetooth spec is horrendous The Bluetooth Classic spec is indeed fairly awful, but the Bluetooth LE spec is not too bad. Plus, the entire specification is available free-of-charge, without even needing to register an account. Bluetooth LE used to be limited to tiny accessories, but these days it supports nearly everything—I've completely disabled Bluetooth Classic on my (Linux) laptop because of how much of a disaster it is, but I'm still able to use my mouse and headphones over LE only. > OpenBSD does not have kernel modules, so it’s either in or not. But I'm assuming that not all kernel code is active at all times? Because it would seem odd to me if the amdgpu code was always active on something like a Raspberry Pi.
    - 0x0203 3mo ago
      Depends on what you mean by active. The kernel has the code in the binary, but on boot it goes through device discovery and initialization, so it doesn't initialize or run drivers for things that aren't present. There are also architecture specific builds, so the aarch64 build won't include driver code at all for devices that are specific to x86.
    - skydhash 3mo ago
      There’s a config[0] mechanism, both static and runtime that tells what gets enabled. In static mode, it tells what’s get compiled in the kernel, while you can disable any drivers (and save your config as a modified kernel) in a compiled one. It mostly a drivers tree that describe how to probe for hadrware. Like mainbus -> pci -> xhci -> usb -> uaudio -> audio. [0] https://man.openbsd.org/config.8 https://man.openbsd.org/config.8
rootnod3 3mo ago
They mostly dropped it because nobody was around who could maintain it. Wasn't just about security.

by knorker 3mo ago

I'd say it's true. They chose to not implement SMP until consumer CPUs surprised them by going multi thread. And obsd has no Bluetooth, right? A pretty big subsystem to drop because security.

somat 3mo ago

And as a counter example here you have openbsd "we are going to install a bgp daemon on every single device, because you never know when you may need one" I am not complaining, I like the feeling that I could single handedly rebuild the internet using only what is found in an openbsd base install. But wow, considering the size there is a lot in there. They definitely punch above their weight.

knorker 3mo ago
It's not a counter example to give examples of what does exist. And it's not like the BGP daemon is on by default. That'd be dumb. You could equally say that any Ubuntu system has equally many steps to turn on a BGP daemon, starting with `apt install frr`. I sure hope openbsd's BGPd doesn't have any suid binaries. And if it doesn't, well that might just as well be a vacation photo instead of a binary for all the "code" it is. I agree that they're punching above their weight, but I would also say that they are falling more and more behind. 25 years ago they were more at par in what use cases they can address, and its performance. But now it's almost retro computing. And it's fine! If you really only need a bog standard webserver, or router/firewall, then that's the use case and it solves your problem. And solves the problem without baggage. I wouldn't use it for storage, though, since running a non-checksumming filesystem nowadays is a bit of a joke. (let's not get into btrfs. I acknowledge its history, but checksumming is not backups, and backups address the historical btrfs problems while not addressing at all the checksumming)

gunapologist99 3mo ago

But Bluetooth is basically a giant blast of security vulnerabilities. On the consumer side, yes, it's a big subsystem to drop, but on the server side, it's a little bit different! I'm not an OpenBSD expert, but seems like you should be able to pass BT through USB and then do that in a subsystem or an isolated environment like a VM.

mikem170 3mo ago
> you should be able to pass BT through USB I use a Creative BT-W2 bluetooth usb dongle. Small and has a button on it for pairing. OpenBSD sees it as a normal audio device.
skydhash 3mo ago
The Bluetooth spec is horrendous, and from what I read, the hardware is equally horrifying. Bluettoth is a wireless bus, not one class a device and an implementation would need to provide hooks to the other subsystems like wscons (keyboard and mouse), audio and network. OpenBSD does not have kernel modules, so it’s either in or not.
- gucci-on-fleek 3mo ago
  > The Bluetooth spec is horrendous The Bluetooth Classic spec is indeed fairly awful, but the Bluetooth LE spec is not too bad. Plus, the entire specification is available free-of-charge, without even needing to register an account. Bluetooth LE used to be limited to tiny accessories, but these days it supports nearly everything—I've completely disabled Bluetooth Classic on my (Linux) laptop because of how much of a disaster it is, but I'm still able to use my mouse and headphones over LE only. > OpenBSD does not have kernel modules, so it’s either in or not. But I'm assuming that not all kernel code is active at all times? Because it would seem odd to me if the amdgpu code was always active on something like a Raspberry Pi.
  - 0x0203 3mo ago
    Depends on what you mean by active. The kernel has the code in the binary, but on boot it goes through device discovery and initialization, so it doesn't initialize or run drivers for things that aren't present. There are also architecture specific builds, so the aarch64 build won't include driver code at all for devices that are specific to x86.
  - skydhash 3mo ago
    There’s a config[0] mechanism, both static and runtime that tells what gets enabled. In static mode, it tells what’s get compiled in the kernel, while you can disable any drivers (and save your config as a modified kernel) in a compiled one. It mostly a drivers tree that describe how to probe for hadrware. Like mainbus -> pci -> xhci -> usb -> uaudio -> audio. [0] https://man.openbsd.org/config.8 https://man.openbsd.org/config.8

rootnod3 3mo ago

They mostly dropped it because nobody was around who could maintain it. Wasn't just about security.