> I am pointing out the whole ‘losing face’ thing exists in the west too. Yes, in the sense that a bicycle and a Formula F1 are both wheeled modes of transport

> I am pointing out the whole ‘losing face’ thing exists in the west too. Yes, in the sense that a bicycle and a Formula F1 are both wheeled modes of transportation. I never said that western cultures don't have the concept of pride - just that it's categorically different in eastern cultures. This is both extremely well academically supported[1] and immediately obvious to anyone who has nontrivial exposure to most eastern cultures (including, specifically, Chinese culture). Furthermore, the punishment of Chelsea manning is clearly irrelevant for multiple different reasons: 1. Specific instances are not reflective of a general pattern 2. Manning and Assange were instances of leakers of classified information, which is a separate category from merely "losing face" 3. There's a consistent pattern of the US government prosecuting leakers of classified information[2] even when there's zero media exposure, which conclusively disproves the "its just saving face" theory [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Face_(sociological_concept)#References https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Face_(sociological_concept)#Re... [2] https://www.justice.gov/news/press-releases?search_api_fulltext=+classified&start_date=&end_date=&sort_by=search_api_relevance https://www.justice.gov/news/press-releases?search_api_fullt...